Older house wiring puzzle

[clare]

I'm likely going to raise the ire of some home inspectors on this group, but I've found them, on the whole, to be a pretty clueless bunch.Many "minor issues" identified are actually pretty expensive and serious shortcomings, while many "serious issues" are simple maintenance items that can be easily remedied at low cost. And many quite major issues are totally missed.

Actually, in many cases , done as part of a redecoration job to get a house ready to sell (improve curb appeal, make it "show well", the cost to totally rewire to current code is SURPRISINGLY affordable. Particularly if the house has both an accessible attic and a full basement. It's incredible how little plaster/drywall really needs atro be damaged/opened up to rewire an older home. The only thing not "to code" would be the spacing of "handy-straps" holding the cable to the studs. The extra wire needed to do it the "simple" way is much less expensive than the extra labour etc to do it the "hard" way.

Yup - but the FACT is, you still cannot buy NEW insurance on a home with K&T wiring in the vast majority of both the USA and Canada.

Renewals are still (generally) available - but no "new business"

In many cases you can leave K&T by code, but in those same cases you may STILL not be able to write new insurance policies on the home.

A friend's son bought a home less than 10 years ago that was advertized as fully rewired and re-plumbed.

When he went to sell 2 months ago, a home inspector found there was still K&T in use throughout most of the main part of the house, as well as a lot of galvanized water pipe and the cast iron sewer stack (which was rusted through and leaking in several spots)

When that was discovered, it had to be told to all prospective buyers

- which severely limited the market, and the price he could expect to get for the house.

After getting some estimates they dropped the price something like $30,000 and it was snapped up almost immediately - the buyer knowing the wiring and plumbing could be brought up to current code, with all iron pipe and K&T wiring replaced, and redecorated for that amount, with money left over. (House listed for $285,000)

[bud--]

"Obviously you are too lazy to click on links." Insulating K&T is the subject of the link to the Illinois Dept of Commerce. But you could just read what I posted that came from that link: "No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them."

If you knew anything about the NEC you would know it has no intrinsic authority and is in effect only as it is adopted by enforcement jurisdictions.

If you read the Illinois report you would know that many jurisdictions, including 5 entire states, have modified the NEC prohibition on insulation.

Lacking competent sources you attack others. Your level of stupidity is amazing.

Your understanding of the NEC is minimal.

As you consistently ignore, the NEC does not require removal of K&T. A "rewire" can just refeed K&T.

If you read the Illinois report on insulation around K&T you would know that "looking at the record of the code change, it was not based on data substantiating a actual problems."

But why would you want to read - you would just get confused. Zealots don't like conflicting information.

Still missing - *data* that supports your claim that K&T is intrinsically hazardous. Or *authoritative* sources.

Still missing - data that indicates significant hazard from insulation around K&T.

[bob haller]

so the NEC prohibition means NOTHING?

[bob haller]

heres a interesting link including info on 3 homefires caused by encapsulating K&T with insulation.

so bud what do you think of the photos of hacked K&T wiring?

[Steve Barker]

Bullshit. That's just not true in the US. Don't know about the french.

[Steve Barker]

No, they don't regulate insulation practices.

[Steve Barker]

That page will not load. Probably being caught by the bullshit filter.

[clare]

Hey JERK. The French are Canadien - the rest of us are Canadian - and speek "'merican" just like most of you "yanks" and "rebs"

[clare]

Loaded just fine for me. You DO need a reasonably recent vesion of a PDF reader.

[Steve Barker]

hmmmm. have version 9.1.3 still no load.

[Steve Barker]

OK Asshole. I was just referring to the Canadians as french. duh.

[bob haller]

ignore NEC rules home has fire caused by ignorance, contractor is in deep trouble, with major insurance hassles, and likely loose their business.

perhaps his cmputer is aged like K&T:)

[bob haller]

that page is interesting stating homes over 40 years old have a electrical fire risk 1.5 times greater than newer homes.

I believe that nearly had a fire here once, from insulation failure in a overhead light that put shower of sparks all over our bed.

replaced all overhead fixtures because of that!!!

[bud--]

Apparently you are too stupid to understand the NEC.

Let me try for at least the 3rd time: The NEC has no intrinsic authority and is in effect only as it is adopted by enforcement jurisdictions. The Illinois report said many jurisdictions, including 5 entire states, have modified the NEC prohibition on insulation.

[bud--]

Approximately 2% of the total fires. There is NO info on the fires.

And "these fires do no constitute a probability sample." In other words, the 2% rate in the reported fires has no general significance because it was not a random sample.

I didn't see much hacked K&T. Fig 3 - *Romex* in and out of a fan with no connectors. No K&T. Fig 5 - only *Romex* is seen, no mention of K&T Fig 7 - an open splice does not appear to involve K&T Fig 8 - open taped splice in extension cord does not include K&T For an article about K&T most of the horror pics weren't K&T. But you probably didn't notice.

My kid's house had hacked wiring, none of it K&T.

Fig 1 shows K&T wiring at a lightning fixture where the insulation has been damaged by heat. This is a fixture problem, not a K&T problem. As I have said, I have seen BX and Romex above light fixtures where the insulation cracked off when you moved the wire. It is why modern light fixtures have temperature ratings for the supply wiring and a lot of fixtures have thermal insulation in the base. So another illustration that is a general problem, not a K&T problem - I am not impressed by the failure in the report to distinguish.

And I am also not impressed by taking volt drop measurements at 20A and comparing to a recommended 5% max drop. Most K&T wiring is #14 designed for 15A.

The report said "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard."

And "insulating over knob and tube wiring, when the wiring is free of problems, is rarely, by itself, a fire problem. However, insulating over wires can be a critical contributing factor to creating a fire hazard when other problems, faults or abuse are present." Most of the 'abuse' in the report was not K&T. Not much of the abuse I have seen has been K&T.

Still missing - *data* that supports your claim that K&T is intrinsically hazardous. This report didn't support your claim.

Still missing - data that indicates significant hazard from insulation around K&T. Didn't see that in the report either.

[bob haller]

GOOD you at least read the link, progress.

the trouble with K&T the connections are all buried inside walls etc no boxes. So its impossible to inspect properly and if you open walls you might as well replace it, and upgrade to more than one outlet per room:)

do ask the 3 people who had home fires from encapsulating K&T in insulation wether its a fire hazard.......

and stand back they might want to throw something at you.

[clare]

Don't be an ignorant ass about it.

[bud--]

You're a real idiot.

If you actually read your source you would have found it does not agree with you.

Your source said "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard." That contradicts to what you say.

The problems shown in your source were almost all not identified as involving K&T wiring.

Your source said the data did not have statistical significance.

The "Illinois" report found no record of hazard in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them.

Many jurisdictions, including 5 states, allow insulating around K&T.

Your source insulated around much of the K&T wiring.

Still missing - *data* that indicates significant hazard from insulation around K&T.

Still missing - *data* that supports your claim that K&T is intrinsically hazardous. Your source directly contradicts you.

[bob haller]

statisticall significant is 100% for those who had fire from insulating K&T the article clearly states this occured

[bob haller]

In looking into the NEC this report clearly indicates that although the NEC isnt a national law anyone who desnt follow its rules are liable if a fire occurs.

so nearly all juristictions have adopted these rules as local laws.

and if bud happily insulates over K&T to make a few bucks, and a fire occurs bud will be liable in a court of law for his stupidity.

ultimately who doing any home repairs wants the risk of a fire? or to be civily or criminally liable if a fire occurs? or someone gets hurt or worse?