Older house wiring puzzle

how many links do you want posted?

heres one, i can flood the board if you like.

sadly bud is living in dreamland, where stuff thats 100 years old is just fine

Knob and Tube Wiring William Kibbel III, The Home Inspector Handy homeowners, critters, and time are enemies of this vintage wiring system

Dear Home Inspector: Our home inspector recommended replacing the knob and tube wiring in our home. But my father-in-law says there's nothing wrong with leaving it alone. What is your opinion of this type of wiring?

When installed correctly knob and tube wiring was, in some ways, superior to current wiring practices.

Unfortunately, this system is rarely intact after 80 or so years of use. Things that happen well after the original installation can cause major problems. For this reason, I agree with your inspector.

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Time, heat, and possibly hungry critters have caused the insulation on this wiring to disintegrate.

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Before I explain the problems, let's examine this old type of wiring. Fairly common in houses built before 1930, the system uses porcelain insulators (knobs) for running wires through unobstructed spaces. Porcelain tubes protect wires that run through studs and joists.

Some of the safety features of the system are:

The porcelain knobs suspend the wire in open air to dissipate heat. The wiring was usually installed along the center of joists and studs away from potential nail punctures. Additional protection is provided by porcelain tubes where it passes through wood. The hot and neutral wires are always separated by at least 3 inches except near a connection to a box or fixture. At these places, an additional protective woven sleeve, or was used from the last knob. Splices were joined by wrapping one wire around another and then soldering the joint. Knobs were then placed within 6 inches of the splices to prevent stress on the connection. Wires were usually never loose or placed on top of joists where they could be easily damaged. The two main weaknesses of this vintage wiring are:

The lack of a ground conductor, and Switches were often placed on the neutral wire, turning off the circuit, but not the current. Improper alterations

Improper alterations are the most consistent problem I find with knob and tube wiring, and they pose a significant safety hazard. Unfortunately from a safety standpoint, the electrical system is one of the few things in a home that can be installed completely wrong and still

Additional branches improperly added to the original wiring is one of the common problems I see. When additional branches or fixtures are added, the fuses protecting the old circuits are likely to blow frequently. Installing larger fuses is an easy, but unsafe, solution. Oversized fuses allow much more current to flow than originally intended, resulting in additional heat in the conductors. This heat causes the insulation protecting the wire to become brittle, and eventually to disintegrate.

Heat and critters

Heat directly above ceiling lights and in un-vented attics can also degrade the wire insulation. Some types of insulation used on knob and tube wiring seem to be a delicacy for the critters that find their way into old homes. They can make short work of the insulation covering the wires.

Thermal insulation problems

Faced with drafty houses and high heating bills, homeowners often add thermal insulation to their attics and walls. Insulation on top of knob and tube wiring is a major fire hazard.

Remember the first good point of knob and tube wiring? The wire suspended in open air allows heat to dissipate. Loose and rolled insulation counteracts the original open air installation of knob and tube wiring.

In 1987, the National Electric Code prohibited the placement of insulation in contact with this type wiring. Later, a couple of west coast states permitted insulation provided the wiring was "certified" by a licensed electrician, foil or paper backed batt insulation was not used and warning signs were placed where the old wiring is concealed by the insulation.

Finally, there seems to be a growing concern about this old wiring from the homeowners insurance companies. I have found one that will not write a policy if there is more than a certain percentage of knob and tube wiring still in use and several will not offer coverage unless it is all replaced.

I would like to agree with your father in law, but my experience has been that previous owners, excessive heat and even critters didn=92t know to "leave it alone".

About the Author William Kibbel III is a home inspector and restoration consultant specializing in historic residential and commercial buildings. He is vice president of Tri-County Inspection Company, serving Southeastern Pennsylvania and Central New Jersey.

Bill welcomes questions for future columns. You may contact him at snipped-for-privacy@oldhouseweb.com

Reply to
bob haller
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Knob and Tube Wiring If your home was built before the mid 1930=92s it is likely that Knob and Tube wiring was used. Knob and Tube Wiring should be evaluated by a licensed electrician, and in many cases replaced.

The facts about Knob and Tube:

The newest (original) Knob and tube wiring is around 70 years old It is a greater fire hazard It is a greater electrocution hazard It is obsolete to modern use standards More and more insurance providers are denying homeowner=92s insurance on houses with knob and tube wiring It is an open air wire, and not designed to be covered with insulation In most cases the insulation is brittle and damaged (from age) More likely to have improper splicing Return to Table of Contents

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Reply to
bob haller

What is Knob and Tube Wiring March 8, 2008 =B7 Filed Under Home Inspections and Home Maintenance I=92ve recently witnessed knob and tube wiring in some downtown St. John=92s homes. It=92s not a common sight, but when things are uncommon and unknown a lot of questions arise.

So, just what is knob and tube wiring?

Knob and tube wiring is found in older homes dating back to the

1940=92s. It was the electrical wiring choice at the time due to being inexpensive and practical. Knob and tube is a two wire system consisting of a =91hot=92 and a =91neutral=92 wire =96 no ground wire. When= the wiring was run through floor joists it was placed in a ceramic tube to prevent the wires from chafing.

If you happen to notice knob and tube in a home you are purchasing (hopefully you have a Home Inspector) asks lots of questions.

In the =93older days=94, this method was quite adequate for the electrical loads being produced in a house hold. However as computers, plasma TV=92s and microwaves became the new way of life, the increase is amperage (electrical current) to run these devices posed a problem for knob and tube wiring. It became subject to repeatedly blowing 15mp amp fuses. Quick fixes allowed homeowners to over-fuse circuits (changing the 15amp fuse to a 20 or 30amp fuse) which in turn caused heat damage to the wiring due to higher levels of current.

Some insurance companies in St. John=92s will still insure knob and tube wiring but they require an electrician to inspect the house to make sure that there are no circuits over-fused. Of course there are some insurance companies in St. John=92s that refuse to insure knob and tube wiring. No insurance =3D no mortgage.

Tags: downtown St. John's, electrical, home inspector, homeowner, knob and tube

Reply to
bob haller

Connections to concealed knob-and-tube wiring. In cases where the existing wiring is concealed knob-and-tube, the NEC does allow it to be extended from an existing application. But that is seldom practical because the hardware is no longer readily available, and the existing knobs salvaged from old jobs have internal spacings for old Type R conductor insulation that will not work on today=92s thinner insulated conductors. Concealed knob-and-tube, as a wiring method, has no equipment grounding conductor carried with it. Over the generations, NEC provisions have changed to the point that it is almost impossible legally to wire anything without grounding it. For example, until the

1984 NEC, what is now 314.4 only required the grounding of metal boxes used with concealed knob-and-tube wiring if in contact with metal lath or metallic surfaces. Now all metal boxes must be grounded without exception.

Meanwhile, grounding has been getting more difficult to arrange to remote extensions of concealed knob-and-tube outlets. Until the 1993 NEC, you could go to a local bonded water pipe to pick up an equipment grounding connection, and then extend from there with modern wiring methods. Now 250.130(C), which governs this work, requires that the equipment grounding connection be made on the equipment grounding terminal bar of the supply panelboard, or directly to the grounding electrode system or grounding electrode conductor. You will not be inspecting grounding connections associated with concealed knob-and- tube wiring in a steel-frame building. Rather you will see this in old wood-frame buildings, probably residential. In such occupancies, even if the water supply lateral is metallic, the water piping system ceases to be considered as an electrode beyond 5 feet from the point of entry. This usually means fishing into the basement. If the contractor can fish a ground wire down to this point, he or she can fish a modern circuit up in the reverse direction and avoid the entire problem.

It is true that some geographical areas have more extensive use of slab-on-grade construction, and here interior water piping is sometimes permitted to qualify as electrodes because the pipes extend to grade for the minimum threshold distance of 10 feet, and thereby allow interior connections. But in almost every case, extensions of concealed knob-and-tube wiring do not do well upon close inspection.

In addition to the grounding issue, beginning with the 1987 NEC this wiring method cannot be used in wall or ceiling cavities that have =93loose, filled, or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops the conductors.=94 This effectively means that such cavities cannot be insulated, because the only method of compliance involves opening all the walls to install board insulation products, and no contractor is going to keep this wiring method with the walls open. This rule is particularly controversial because, to the extent enforced in existing construction, it is a powerful economic disincentive for owners to retrofit thermal insulation.3

bud I copied and pasted because obviously you are too lazy to click on links, while you spout dis information it just adds to readers confusion.

this is just a few of the references. who wants a obsolete system that shouldnt be insulated?

few homebuyers will be interested in buying such a home.

rewiring isnt that expensive, when you consider how it increases your homes value.

besides if a homebuyer cant get homeowners insurance its a no sale...... for nearly every buyer out there.

so the seller must rewire, at that point the rewire must meet all current safety codes...............

bud you want a 100 more? or a 1000?

just to discredit you i nwill be happy to keep on posting.:)

Reply to
bob haller

Bud now knows I am correct:) The K&T issues are well documented, everything from insulation being a bad idea, to insurance troubles. besides lack of grounds and being obsolete.

Bud glad i was able to help educate you:)

Reply to
bob haller

My "dreamland" is based on years of experience as an electrician. Much of it was doing service calls where I saw numerous K&T installations.

I believe Roy, another electrician, has also written K&T that has not been abused is not a problem.

halerb had a nightmare where he was attacked by knobs and was forced to hide in tubes.

To look at claims of K&T hazards:

Over fusing is a problem for any wiring method. One could argue that K&T is more immune in that wires are not in contact with each other until they reach a box.

I have seen no evidence of problems in attic wiring. I have salvaged wire out of attics that was in like-new shape.

Heat at ceiling lights can certainly rot out insulation. It rots out

*all* insulation including plastic. I have seen rubber insulation on BX and plastic insulation on Romex crack off when the wires were moved. Light fixtures now have ratings for the temperature rating of the supply wiring. And Romex now has a higher temperature rating. What about the old 2 wire Romex? If anything K&T is safer because the wires are not in contact until they reach the box. It is not easy to fix BX where there are bare wires back to the connector.

"Critters" can be a problem for Romex.

None of these problems are unique K&T hazards.

As posted previously

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a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. The report looked at available information on hazards of insulation around K&T. The report found no record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted, was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.

There is no reason to believe "insulation on top of knob and tube wiring is a major fire hazard". This is home inspector FUD. Where is the supporting data.

Reply to
bud--

bob haller wrote: >

The only K&T hazard in the post - as already stated, over fusing can be a problem for any wiring system. This is not a specific K&T hazard.

Reply to
bud--

Again looking at

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report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs - looking at the record of the code change, it was not based on data substantiating a actual problems. The report found that many jurisdictions have modifications to the code prohibition of insulating where K&T is present.

As I have already pointed out, there is no *data* to support the claim that the insulation causes a hazard. The chief electrical inspector for Minneapolis has said insulation was not a problem.

Too lazy - I am devastated. (Have you read my sources?)

My "dis information" came from state agencies and electrical inspectors.

Two of your sources were apparently home inspectors. Two of your sources were completely unidentified.

I want to see a knowledgeable electrical industry source, not home inspector FUD.

In the real world, rewiring to completely eliminate K&T is enormously expensive.

Where is the insurance casualty *data* that justifies insurance denial. Still missing.

Just as it was missing when challenged in Maine and the insurance company "provided no justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

You appear to have no concept of what the NEC requires. A "rewire" only affects the wiring that is changed. A "rewire" does not require all wiring in a house conform to the current NEC. You are really a fount of misinformation.

As I have said, you can "rewire" and leave the existing K&T.

Of course, just like a Jehovah's Witness.

Still missing - *data* that supports your claim. Your buddies at State Farm can't help you?

Reply to
bud--

Bud ignores the NEC, which prohibits insulation contacting K&T

jeez i wouldnt want to live in a home you worked on.........

you must believe the NEC is advisory only?

you must be smarter than the entire NEC, which must look at all these issues carefully

Reply to
bob haller

it does if homeowners insurance REQUIRES its removal and once the homeowner faces that it requires things like GFCIs

the NEC must be a nuisance to you, soft shoe shuffling past safety cdes and requirements

Reply to
bob haller

You haven't proved or educated anyone you pin headed bastard. No links, no official docs, just a bunch of made up text that had no conclusive results.

s
Reply to
Steve Barker

The NEC does not regulate the insulation of houses. AND the K&T wiring is not new enough to be involved in a current inspection process. I've covered miles of it with insulation in multiple rentals. Proper fusing of the circuits is the key. No overamperage= No heat. You should just go hang yourself with some single strand wire you pin headed bastard.

Reply to
Steve Barker

The insurance DOES NOT require the removal of it. And you have not provided any documentation to the effect that it does.

s
Reply to
Steve Barker

many insurance companies REFUSE to write NEW policies on homes with K&T wiring.

OK its time i flood this discussion with info

Reply to
bob haller

In 1987, the National Electric Code prohibited the placement of insulation in contact with this type wiring. Later, a couple of west coast states permitted insulation provided the wiring was "certified" by a licensed electrician, foil or paper backed batt insulation was not used and warning signs were placed where the old wiring is concealed by the insulation.

Reply to
bob haller

=BDYou should just

Currently the United States NEC forbids use of loose, blown-in, or expanding foam insulation over K&T wiring.[5] This is because K&T is designed to let heat dissipate to the surrounding air. As a result, energy efficiency upgrades that involve insulating previously uninsulated walls usually also require replacement of the wiring in affected homes.

you must be buds realtive or something:) your rentals are at some risk from fire.......

you need to check current codes, but heres the wikipedia reference

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As existing K&T wiring gets ever older, insurance companies may deny coverage due to increased risk. Several companies will not write new homeowners policies at all unless all K&T wiring is replaced or unless an electrician has certified that the wiring is in good condition.

Reply to
bob haller

make sure it's reliable info with links.

Reply to
Steve Barker

I'm not worried about your so called "codes" and i'm CERTAINLY not reading ANYthing from MF wikipedia.

Reply to
Steve Barker

The only thing I have ever found wrong with K&T is that it is getting close to 100 years old . Not just the wiring but the insulators and the framing they are attached too and the fasteners they are attached with. Almost all problems I have seen with it are due to age. A lot of things happen in years. Wood shrinks, nails rust, insulators crack, all it takes is time for something to go wrong. If the argument is that there is still plenty of K&T that looks like the day it was installed I would agree but I would have to ask, "for how much longer".

The only code I know of that specifically addresses K&T is a local code that forbids the repair and modification of K&T wiring.This pretty much means if it breaks or you touch it rip it out. I first became aware of this when helping my then fiance to restore her Victorian farmhouse around 1982. Switch wiring mounted externally on a wall which we had taken down while making repairs to the wall could not be replaced. We were able to get around this by letting the K&T become a low voltage control circuit for her lights. Under this code the updating the breaker panel forced the removal of all of the K&T with the exception of the part we used for low voltage.

Jimmie

Reply to
JIMMIE

NEC 394.12 2002 specifially prohibits insulating K&T in wall cavaties

geez its near a 100 years old, everything needs replaced eventually.

shingle roofs 25 years

Reply to
bob haller

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