Older house wiring puzzle

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google knob and tube wiring home fire insurance. endless reports of not being able to get homeowners insurance. and that insulation shouldnt be used around K&T wiring.
with todays energy costs who doesnt want insulation?
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bob haller wrote:

You really aren't smart enough to get rid of this garbage?

Perhaps you missed: http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?idq90 "is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted, was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)"
--
bud--

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bud-- wrote:

Everyone tends to ignore the fact that there's not one documented case of insulation causing a problem around K&T wiring.
s
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wrote:

It's not casualties, it's property loss they are woried about. The vast majority of houses with K&T are under wired, so a lot of extension cords, and often overfused to allow use of all the stuff everyone wants to use. Remenber, many houses had only 2 or 3 fuses originally. Even 6 15 amp circuits is inadequate for most homeowners today.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>

I understand insurance casualty to be insurance loss information.

Then maybe insurance companies could evaluate if houses had "adequate" outlets and circuits.
As I wrote before, my house was wired with rigid pipe and originally had maybe 1 or 2 outlets per room.
I still believe K&T denials are just redlining.
--
bud--

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bud-- wrote:

And to repeat from one of the 2 links in this thread, the report from a state insurance regulator on a challenge to insurance denial, the insurance company "provided no justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".
--
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That's from ONE case that went to trial. Maybe the insurance company just decided that it wasn't worth the cost to go do the collection of data, make that data to the standards that a court would require, provide all the necessary expert witness testimony instead of just paying the $100K or whatever the judgement would be.
The notion that insurance companies just go around "redlining" for no reason is silly. They have their factors which affect how much they may or may not pay out depending on multiple factors. Personally, I would not want to insure a 100 year old house with hacked up knob and tube as described in the original post. I guess I'd guiltu of "redlining", whatever exactly that term means. Insurance companies are in the business of making money. Denying to take policy when there is not substantial increased risk makes no sense. Google "knob tube wiring insurance" and you will find plenty of hits concerning problems.
I guess the next step is for Obama to nationalize the home insurance markets because some people with K&T can' get insurance and the evil insurance companies are "redlining."
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On Sep 16, 1:21�pm, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

everyone wants low rates, but the added risks from super old homes, K&T wiring, bad roofs. cracked uneven sidewalks, all of these are outward indicators of a poorly maintained home.
when all is said and done the added claims MUST be covered by higher insurance rates. who voluneers to pay more?
if you google this topic you will find many reports of cant get homeowners insurance.
makes selling home near impossible.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>

It was a hearing before the Maine insurance regulator, not a trial. It resulted in an order to provide insurance because the insurance company "provided no justification for its position". As I said, Minnesota ordered State Farm(?) to drop a surcharge for services that had not been recently upgraded.
And you are saying that insurance companies should base their rates and policies on someone's opinion, not casualty (or loss if you prefer) data? I guess insurance companies could fire the people that analyze data. I think women have more accident, so they get higher rates.

The notion that insurance companies have gone around "redlining" neighborhoods is well documented. The neighborhood are likely to have old houses. Old houses may have K&T. They also tended to have a black population (maybe coincidence?)

Like casualty [loss] data?

Personally I wouldn't want to insure my kid's house (when he bought it) with hacked up Romex and other wiring.
Hacked up, along with not many outlets, is a separate issue.
IMHO K&T is safer than the early Romex (which also did not have a ground).
And what about the early 60 degree rated Romex that is buried in insulation? Twice the heat, wires in close proximity?
Maybe insurance companies could look at the condition of the wiring? They could at least look at casualty data. No indication yet that they did.

It was (maybe metaphorically) drawing a "red line" on a map and not insuring houses in that area. I believe it is illegal in many (all?) states, so insurance companies may use other means to accomplish the same thing.

Which goes back to the same question - what is the evidence there is increased risk? Still missing.
Anecdotal evidence in this thread (clare's younger brother) proves Romex is hazardous.
--
bud--

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my best friends 200 year old home had K&T one evening he happened to go to the basement and smelled a burning odor, traced to a old solder joint that was overheating and smoking.......
there you go evidence K&T can cause fires just like romex
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wrote:

Likely have a very high loss ratio in the neighbourhood.

You are being STUPID.
The romex was not the hazard. The house was. And the installation of the Romex. This house was so far off kilter if you dropped anything CLOSE to round on the floor it would head for one corner, all by itself. The "addition" that held the kitchen was on a separate foundation, not tied to the main foundation, and the cable in question went through a drilled hole that went throgh framework on both the main house and the addition. Settling over time had "sheared" the cable between the two timbers. When the insulation finally gave way, it turned into a hot spot.
Granted, with K&T the two wires could never have touched.
The house was a disaster from the day he bought it - but it was all he could afford with a bit of land attached (20 acres IIRC) and room to park his rig, and turn it around. The barn wasn't much to look at either, but they lived in it and a small trailer while the new house was put up. He's my "red-neck trucker" kid brother.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

The hazard is anecdotal proofs, which this thread seems to be full of.
--
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the proof the OPs wiring is a hazard is found in his first post. he admitted its been hack repaired and altered. the perfect combo for a home fire:(
since the OP is working for a client he will be on the hook if theres a fire, even years later.
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bob haller wrote:

Whatever the condition from the OP, that is not a reflection on K&T in general, as you want to claim.
Still missing - evidence that K&T is an intrinsic hazard. Or that it is more of a problem than, for example, early 2 wire Romex.
--
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obviously anything thats been around this long is obsolete, lacks new safety upgrades, and is great risk of hack repairs over its life.
have you called statre farm to confirm they wouldnt write new policies for K&T homes?
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As in 'early' 1950s installations of domestic electricity here! Meter in the halfway, 115 volt two wire service, no ground, two cartridge fuses probably 20 or 30 amps fuses, one in the neutral and one in the live, one ceiling light (with a pull cord) in the kitchen with everything, small radio, fridge, and when required an electric iron (replacing the ones you used to heat on top of the stove) plugged into it with extension cords. Quite often a water pump under the sink, unless one still 'dipped' water from the well outside. Later on maybe a single outlet for the big wooden TV set (only one channel until 1958); if that wasn't also plugged into the ceiling light! Wouldn't even be allowed for hook-up these days! There is also a story about someone who wired their own house, back then, as electricity became available in small rural communities, couple of hundred miles from the main city, by running individual wires from each individual light and outlet location in the house. Apparently ended up with a huge mess of wires at the fuse panel; must been quite job to get ten wires on one terminal!
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On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 11:42:15 -0700 (PDT), stan

"Home Run" K&T wiring was not that uncommon way back when. Called "common buss" also I think, generally more often used with low voltage DC "farm power" setups (delco plant, Winco etc). where fusing was generally NOT in a common distribution panel The Positive "buss" was a heavy wire, bar, or pipe down one side of a house, and the negative down the other side. Circuits were strung across the building. If someone was familiar with that kind of wiring and then wired a house to a main panel, it could get very interesting - not to mention a REAL BUGGER to sort out!!!!
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bob haller wrote:

So are you too lazy or too stupid to edit out this garbage?

"Obviously" is not proof. Obviously missing - evidence that K&T is an intrinsic hazard. I don't believe electricians in this newsgroup agree with you.
What evidence is there *hack* repairs are common on K&T? I don't remember ever seeing any.
Is *hack" wiring more common than with other wiring methods?
Your opinion doesn't count. Where is a source? Never anything but opinion and anecdotes.
In the link supplied previously an insurance company did not provide evidence when challenged. Insurance companies employ lots of actuaries to determine risk. I see no reason to believe insurance companies have determined such a risk.

Have you read that in Minnesota State Farm (probably) had a surcharge on older services and the state insurance regulator ordered the surcharge dropped.
Because an insurance company does something does not necessarily mean there is a rational basis. Where is your evidence?
I see no reason to believe State Farm is not redlining.
--
bud--

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would yopu be happy to pay say 100 bucks more a month for homeowners insurance so homes with K&T and other obsolete systems can have insurance?
are YOU stating the CURRENT NEC regulations havent made new installs safer?
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K&T requires good soldering skills. thats not common today, worse connections arent in boxes so a failing joint that overheats can easily cause a fire.........
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