Older house wiring puzzle

[bob haller]

I asked state farm my homeowners carrier about K&T the agent reported we cant write new policies for it.

A few years ago A friends homeowners company wenty out of business, he HAD to have his home rewired since no other company would insure K&T

He also had to have a railing installed on some outside steps, repair some cracked cement walk areas, dispose of debris stored under his porch.

homeowners insurance has changed dramatically in the last 10 years

I really dont care what anyone does to their home. but a contractor or home handyman should be very careful. its probably impossible to prove who did what when to the wiring the OP admits was hacked repaired.

so there could be another unknown fault he doesnt know about but might end up in legal trouble over that he didnt even do.

if theres a fire the wiring will be looked at carefully, legal defense even if OP wins can easily cost thousands.

you were warned

[clare]

EXCEPT it is not designed to handle the current requirements of today's average home.

In a LOT of ways, it is actually SAFER (electrically) than current wiring practices as the live and neutral are widely spaced. Pretty hard to drive a nail through a wire and cause a short.

However, MANY older homes with K&T have NO BOXES. Therefore no "fire enclosure" if a faulty device (switch , receptacle, or lamp base) should start on fire. That's where the underwritters start having fits. Particularly if there is flamable insulation around those wires.

[clare]

My younger brother's old house (old crappy farm house) burned down due to an electrical fault. The house had a LOT of K&T wiring - but it wasn't K&T that caused the fire. The old "shack" had a sagging summer kitchen - and the ROMEX wire going from the main house to the addition had a "shear failure" due to movement between the 2 parts of the building. The wires rubbed through the insulation enough to cause heat without blowing the breaker/fuse. (Think it was the stove cable).

Anyway, it got him a new house.

[trader4]

I think all the above are very good questions. I would be damn careful what I did to patch up or improve old K&T wiring which is already a mess. And I would be certain to know the code, pull any required permits and get any required inspections.

Just because a customer wants something done on the cheap doesn't mean as a professional you should do it. If someone gets electrocuted or the house burns down, you could very well be sued. And for a professional the courts generally take the view that YOU are the expert and should not be doing something half assed or on the cheap that isn't really the right thing to do just because a client wants it.

Also regarding the debate about insurance and K&T, a simple google for "knob tube insurance" brings you lots of hits that say there most certainly are issues of insurability with at least some insurance companies.

[JIMMIE]

I was trying to sort out the K&T wiring in my grandfathers house. I followed a pair of wires through the attic thinking one was hot and the other neutral. Wrong, both were hot and went to overhead lighting. The switches were in the neutral side and these wires connected to a pipe buried in the ground along side the house. Apparently this was the neutral/ground buss. The current switches in the house were modern switches but from some old photos taken in the 40sI learned they used to be knife switches. Final solution was to just rip everything out and rewire.

Jimmie

[David Nebenzahl]

On 9/11/2009 2:53 PM [e-mail] spake thus:

Yabut, the K&T circuits (3 of them) are all on 15-amp breakers, so they're well within their ratings. No danger there.

This was stated elsewhere in the thread, and I agree with it.

I've seen lots of houses with K&T wiring, but *none* with "no boxes" as you describe. (On the other hand, I have seen *lots* of wiring added later that should have in boxes but wasn't.) All devices (switches, outlets and lighting fixtures) have proper boxes here.

[Steve Barker]

WOW! you mean he actually was able to insure it?>? HELLOOOOO Bob buddy, this guy got insurance on a K&T wired house!!!! HELLO???

[Steve Barker]

The switching on the neutral side carried over into the romex days. I found that in my next to last house we bought. BUT they did have all the switch branches junctioned in boxes in the attic, so it wasn't a big deal to make it right.

[Stormin Mormon]

Mudslides, hurricanes, and such will make a big comeback.

[Ed Pawlowski]

When I changed insurance companies, the questionnaire asked if the house had K&T wiring. I have no idea what they do with the information if they get a yes. They also asked about swimming pools, fences, roof, etc.

[clare]

The house burned down 15 years ago last week. Long before the insurance companies became "extremely risk adverse"

[Steve Barker]

i doubt it was from the wiring unless it was improperly fused. (or not fused at all) I've seen that.

s

[John Gilmer]

Heck, if anything, it is safer.

It takes a lot of care to initially install K&T wiring as compared to just slapping down some romex and putting in a few staples. K&T doesn't depend upon the insulation of the individual conductors to prevent a short. The knobs and tubes are made of a ceramic.

K&T wiring doesn't have a separate ground conductor and until GFCIs became available, that increased the risk of shock from appliances and in wet areas.

Powering a section of K&T from a GRCI breaker creates a very safe situation.

>

[David Nebenzahl]

On 9/12/2009 8:25 PM John Gilmer spake thus:

I think you meant to type "GFCI", no? I don't think my client wants to pay for them fancy newfangled GRCI breakers ...

[bob haller]

On Sep 13, 12:04=EF=BF=BDam, David Nebenzahl

Yeah why bother installing something that saves lives, bet they want to save bucks on their new vehicle by deleting safety belts? and why not remove and sell off the air bags too.

hey wonder what the courts would say if dave here did some remodeling in kitchen or bath and didnt install GFCIs.

later a hairdryer drops in the tub and a child dies.

happy go lucky dave losses everything he owns.........

would he be criminally liable? but he did save the custmer a few bucks....

I service machines for a living and have seen lots of safety hazards.

I REFUSE to work on a machine that has a gross safety hazard unless the customer approves my correcting that safety issue as part of the service....

what other things are installed so long ago without being replaced for newer safer items. please name some I am interested?

Around here K&T has no boxes unless they were added at a later date.

the wires are soldered on and buried in walls where connections cant be seen:(

if the solder joint detoriates for whatever reason it can overheat and since its not in a box cause a fire..

plus K&T homes are lucky to have one outlet per room, which leads to lots of trip hazards, idiots puttng extension cords under carpets and overloaded circuits most K&T homes have very few seperate circuits.

lack of grounds is a biggie for me. a ungrounded but GFCI outlet can cause computer troubles:(

[John Gilmer]

The key, IMO, it that you get your insurance from an independent agent rather than applying directly to a company.

The agent will spread his clients around several companies and, thus, spread the risk. An insurance company may be willing to have a few K&T homes on its rolls but it doesn't want to ensure every house in some antique town.

Our agent never asked about wiring. The insurance company is licensed to do business in the state (VA) and, thus, we can rely upon getting paid if the house burns down. We don't worry and the insurance company doesn't have excessive risk in one town.

The only difficulty we had with the insurace was because we got a LOT of house for not much money (repro.) The carrier sent someone by to see with his own eyes that the house was as big as we claimed. Our insurance will pay "replacement" value so they don't want to be set up.

When a company sells a policy through an agent, it is in part using the agent to screen clients. When they sell direct they don't get that protection and they may not be willing to write on any but plain vanilla type properties in sub-divisions.

[clare]

It WAS from wiring, and the short where the wire was damaged was not a good enough connection to draw enough power to trip the overcurrent protection on the stove wire. 15 amps on a 220 circuit is3200 watts - and that is a LOT of heat to be created in a small area. Definitely enough to start a tinder-dry timber structure on fire. It takes 50 amps to blow the circuit protection on a range receptacle circuit. That's over 12000 watts.of concentrated heat.

[bob haller]

:

add detroit to the low priced homes are the median price of all homes sold in detroit now down to about $12,500... down from 90 grand a few years ago.

If you have a worthless home then why buy insurance? but to get a LOAN you MUST HAVE INSURANCE.

and in any case once the OP mucks with the wiring, espically if he isnt a registered electrician he is on the hook if theres a fire., let alone the horror of possibly causing someones death, espically a child!

[bob haller]

does the OP description sound SAFE???

paste from his first post:(

Have a client with a house built in the '20s, originally knob and tube wired but (partly) converted to more modren wiring methods. Basement ceiling is exposed and where the majority of the house wiring is. Lots of strange, non-standard and some clearly improper wiring exists there: "flying" splices between K&T wiring and NM or armored cable (no junction box), and one place where someone just ran a single insulated wire (THHN or whatever) as a neutral from one place to another. Plus exposed K&T runs going everywhere, one right next to the hot-water shutoff valve.

[bud--]

Maybe if you learned to read you could figure out what John and Dave said.

Another item you have been challenged on in the past. In years of doing service work I never saw a solder joint that "deteriorated". I saw 2 that failed that were "cold joints" when they were made. One was K&T.

Anecdotal evidence (clare's younger brother) proves the real hazard is Romex. I am confident you will now demand removal of all the hazardous Romex wiring out there.

It is certainly as strong as your anecdotal evidence.

Or has an insurance company come up with actual casualty data?