NYC subway repair

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http://preview.tinyurl.com/a2blfyh Edited for length, read full article on web. New York Subway System Faces Weeks to Recover From Storm October 31, 2012
Seven subway tunnels under New York's East River flooded, MTA officials said. Pumping them out could take days, and a 2011 state study said it could take three weeks after hurricane- driven flooding to get back to 90 percent of normal operations. That study forecast damages of $50 billion to $55 billion to transportation infrastructure including the subways.
A subway system has an electrical system that runs equipment, pumps, lights and communications, one that runs switches and signals and a third that powers the electrified third rail for train propulsion, Munfah said. All can be ruined by salt.
Thousands of connections in signal systems will need to be cleaned and tested before trains can run again, said Mortimer Downey, a former MTA executive director and current board member of the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority.
"It's an enormous amount of wiring and an enormous amount of connections that go to what's called relay rooms," Downey said. "They've got to turn the system on, and if it seems to be working I think they've got to go to every component and check it and get rid of all the salt. What you don't want is a short circuit that causes the system to fail."
Spare Parts Finding enough replacement parts will be another challenge that could delay repairs, said Kathy Waters, vice president for member services at the American Public Transportation Association. "The New York system, although there are some components that have been upgraded over the years, has a lot of antique components where the vendor has been out of business for 50 years," Waters said in an interview.
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On Thu, 1 Nov 2012 19:05:52 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

We take so much for granted in our daily lives. I can see that problems can haunt the system for years as residual corrosion comes back.
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wrote:

Salt is corrosive, and absorbs moisture but it also is conductive. The corrosion will eat into electrical contacts, wiring and bearings compounded by the moisture that it absorbs. Moist salt will short circuit electrical systems. Just about everything will have to be pressure washed with distilled water to remove as much salt as possible, other things will have to be replaced before power can be turned on.
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wrote:

I doubt they need distilled water. NYC city water is some of the best in the country. The only question is how long it will take to flush the aqueducts from upstate.
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The GOVERNMENT workers of NYC appear to be doing a very good job, having restored quite a bit of subway service already after just 3 days. That's remarkable.
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The GOVERNMENT workers of NYC appear to be doing a very good job, having restored quite a bit of subway service already after just 3 days. That's remarkable.
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On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 02:38:48 -0700, "David Kaye"

I don't think there is enough distilled water, either.

I agree but I assumed that the part running now is part that was never wet, and that the trains go from the World Trade Center or whereever it is dry, north to the Bronx. Same on the east side. And that trains run within amd betweem Brooklyn and Queens, but none go under the East or Hudson riviers.
FWIW, I heard on the radio that (some of) the salt they use on the streets for ice and snow gets washed into the subways too, and must not do much damage. Of course this is 100 or 1000 times saltier and reached to the ceiling.
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On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 00:10:25 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

best in the country.... LOL ( drink it and you'll see why I say this)
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I heard an interesting comment from a consultant that works with Con Ed. I know that this discussion is about the subways and not the underground electrical infrastructure, but here is basically what he said:
NYC uses salt on their roads, therefore the underground electrical infrastructure is constantly be drenched with water laden with salt as well as with other contaminants. He did say that the current flood waters will contain more of the "other contaminates" but for the most part, the underground electrical infrastructure is pretty robust.
He said it would have been much worse if all of the infrastructure was above ground.
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I guess while people are shipping bottled water to NYC, you and I can send cans of WD-40 to the Subway Authority?
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
We take so much for granted in our daily lives. I can see that problems can haunt the system for years as residual corrosion comes back.
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On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 07:23:25 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

Good idea! Forget pumping them out, just fill the subway with WD-40. That's what it's designed for, right?
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On 11/1/2012 10:28 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

It also shows the result of our "walmart culture" which is doing everything cheap. For example they show very long lines in NJ at gas stations because most stations there don't have generators and apparently most fuel terminals there don't either.
The area adjacent to us is still without power. The folks I know who own gas stations there are able to accommodate everyone because they have backup generators at each of their properties. They also kept all prices the same.
And as has been mentioned not all cell carriers are equal. All except one went dark in the nearby area not long after electricity went off. That would be expected because the one that is up has a "non walmart culture" philosophy.
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The lack of generators is a side effect of "price gouging" laws. The gas stations are not allowed to charge more in crisis, so there is little incentive to spend the money on generator. Your neighbors are exceptional, in that regard. They are probably selling gasoline as fast as the pumps can deliver.
Dr. Walter Williams has written on this concept. I should try to find the article.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
It also shows the result of our "walmart culture" which is doing everything cheap. For example they show very long lines in NJ at gas stations because most stations there don't have generators and apparently most fuel terminals there don't either.
The area adjacent to us is still without power. The folks I know who own gas stations there are able to accommodate everyone because they have backup generators at each of their properties. They also kept all prices the same.
And as has been mentioned not all cell carriers are equal. All except one went dark in the nearby area not long after electricity went off. That would be expected because the one that is up has a "non walmart culture" philosophy.
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so which cell carrier was still operating?
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On Nov 2, 9:09am, "Stormin Mormon"

re: "The gas stations are not allowed to charge more in crisis, so there is little incentive to spend the money on generator."
But they are allowed to sell what gas they have. For the "little incentive" theory to be true, it would have to be more expensive to own/operate a generator than what can be made by remaining open for business.
You would also have to factor in the "cost" of a dark gas station when the looters are out and about. Even if a costs a little more to stay open, it's cheaper than having your business trashed by looters.
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On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 09:09:11 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

I think a decent defense to a price gouging charge would be documenting the increased cost of delivering the fuel. I do tend to agree that these laws are a dis incentive to getting supplies into disaster areas. Why would a business go out of their way to lose money selling products at below cost? Maybe if you are a big corporation like Walmart where you can spread that cost over a wide, unaffected area it is a good business decision but if you are a mom and pop, you are better off just staying closed.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Possibly because of the value of public relations. If you "lose" a few dollars on an individual sale in a time of crisis, but gain a loyal lifelong customer because of it, you come out ahead by a huge margin.
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wrote:

While that is true, you may never see the customer again. They were showing cars in a line at a CT station and they were coming from NY and NJ to get gas. Once back in operation locally, they will not be a repeat customer.
OTOH, it is good to help others in need when you can even if you don't make money.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Economics 101 will tell you that the "money losing" case is often superior to the "shut down" case. In the "shut down" case, many expenses continue: rent, insurance, (sometimes) wages, etc. By staying in production, even if losing money, the owner can often minimize the adverse impact of whatever is causing the downturn.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I saw something on TV that indicated the price gouging laws allowed something like a 10% increase which I would think would cover the cost of running a generator. I'm pretty sure that a station running on a generator could post a sign reminding folks of the extra cost of that and people would generally understand a small increase.
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