no housewrap...

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I have recently discovered that my house (I've been there a little over two years) does not have housewrap underneath the vinyl siding. Underneath is OSB sheathing and the vinyl is installed right on top of the OSB. This is true of all of the houses in my development. After looking around the newsgroups, I find the while housewraps are recommended, there appear to be tons of houses that have this same situation - vinyl siding installed directly over the wood/OSB sheathing. After some rain, I've popped the siding a little so I can see under and don't see any rain or moisture on the OSB. Nevertheless, the paranoid in me is concerned.
I'm really looking for some reassurance here that this situation, while not the best in the world, is OK. Little help? Thanks.
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Did you buy the house new? Used? Did you have it built? What was your purchase situation? Can't help with suggested remedies until we know more.
As for not having a weather barrier between the siding and house -- that's huge no-no. Even out west were the air is mostly dry, it's a huge no-no. Every siding needs to be looked at as "thick paint." In other words, the purpose of the siding is to protect the weather barrier from the elements, most particularly the sun (which deteriorates just about every known weather barrier--tyvek or building paper). Siding will keep most of the water out, but you have to approach it from the viewpoint that, as one building scientist puts it, "things will get wet." If you assume that the siding won't keep all the water out, then you can properly manage the water that does get in. Leaving the tyvek, or building paper, or any other weather barrier off is not acceptable--at least not for me.
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On Tue, 18 May 2004 09:54:35 -0500, "3D Peruna"

Personally I agree 100% that it's a good idea, but I don't agree that it is a necessity in all climates.
My new neighborhood in Spokane WA, with homes up to US$600,000, has mostly houses with no water barrier under the siding. Mine is included. If this were a problem in this climate, it would be required by code.
I did talk to a building inspector and my builder, and they told me it just was not needed here.
I would kind of liked to have it...
John Davies http://home.comcast.net/~johnedavies / '96 Lexus LX450 '00 Audi A4 1.8T quattro Spokane WA USA
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On Tue, 18 May 2004 08:10:49 -0700, someone wrote:

I take it that if the house was in Seattle instead of Spokane, it WOULD be needed?
-v.
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In my opinion, "thick paint" is overstating the protection given by vinyl siding.
I worked on a house with OSB and vinyl siding and no weather barrier. That arrangement had been in place for about three years. I could, without effort, push my hand through the OSB. Tom Baker
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You want reasurance, well I had osb then Tyvek , the instaler screwed up the seams and now in some areas water is trapped and molding badly, it stinks and is swelling and distorting the OSB. With 4x8 osb you realy dont need tyvek as you have very small areas for air infiltration anyway. I will Remove problem areas of Tyvek.
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(remove NS to use the address) 614.937.0463 voice 208.975.1011 fax
http://worthingtonengineering.com
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On 18 May 2004 07:37:56 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@udel.edu (Jeff Six) wrote:

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Tyvek is not a moisture barrier. It is only put there to reduce the infiltration of air through the wall, which is where much of the heat gain or loss occurs. Tyvek or similar is not required by the building code so it is purely up to you and your builder if you want it. It is certainly good to have but not required by law.
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http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/walls/problems_with_housewraps.htm
"The primary function of a housewrap or building paper is rain penetration control. It is not air infiltration despite what the manufacturers say. The energy aspects of housewraps are vastly overstated. They have been embraced by builders for this function as can be evidenced by their market penetration. Yet their critical role in building durability is under appreciated and not marketed. It has been a triumph of marketing over physics." -- Joseph Lstiburek, Ph.D., P. Eng.
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3D Peruna wrote:

Good old Joe is full of bunkum. The manufaturer makes the product and says what the purpose is. Essentially thay say use this product will reduce air infiltration and save you money. Now it may not save money, but they do say what the purpose is. Along comes Joe who decides that the purpose of the product is something else. Something is a little wrong with this picture. I think the manufaturer determines the purpose.
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http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/walls/problems_with_housewraps.htm
penetration
The
embraced
So...then, tell me, do you have research to prove this? Is so, is it available? Seems to me that the Building Science guys aren't just out there making stuff up because it sounds good...
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3D Peruna wrote:

What research is needed? The manufacturer states the purpose of the product. That's it.
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> > > > > > > > > 3D Peruna wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Tyvek is not a moisture > > > > > barrier. It is only put there to reduce the infiltration of air > > > > > through the wall, which is where much of the heat gain or loss > > > > > occurs. Tyvek or similar is not required by the building code so it > > > > > is purely up to you and your builder if you want it. It is > > > > > certainly good to have but not required by law. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/walls/problems_with_housewraps.htm > > > > > > > > "The primary function of a housewrap or building paper is rain > > penetration > > > > control. It is not air infiltration despite what the manufacturers say. > > The > > > > energy aspects of housewraps are vastly overstated. They have been > > embraced > > > > by builders for this function as can be evidenced by their market > > > > penetration. Yet their critical role in building durability is under > > > > appreciated and not marketed. It has been a triumph of marketing over > > > > physics." -- Joseph Lstiburek, Ph.D., P. Eng. > > > > > > Good old Joe is full of bunkum. The manufaturer makes the product and > > > says what the purpose is. Essentially thay say use this product will > > > reduce air infiltration and save you money. Now it may not save > > > money, but they do say what the purpose is. Along comes Joe who > > > decides that the purpose of the product is something else. Something > > > is a little wrong with this picture. I think the manufaturer > > > determines the purpose. > > > > So...then, tell me, do you have research to prove this? Is so, is it > > available? Seems to me that the Building Science guys aren't just out there > > making stuff up because it sounds good... > > What research is needed? The manufacturer states the purpose of the > product. That's it.
Cripes you are cluless.......so what part of AND don't you understand
"Wrapping a home or building in a weather-resistant barrier is not just good sense, it's good building practice. Because it helps combat water, moisture and air infiltration that are any structure's worst enemies. Allowed to penetrate behind siding, wind-driven rain and moisture can saturate walls, creating a breeding ground for mold, mildew and wood rot. The properties of Tyvek do not support the growth of mold or mildew. Air infiltrating from outside can create comfort-robbing cold or warm spots while increasing heating and cooling costs.
DuPont Tyvek acts like a windbreaker and wrapped over the sheathing and under the exterior siding-cut out around windows and doors and taped securely at the seams-resists air infiltration and water intrusion and makes for a more comfortable, energy-efficient home or building. "
Of course the manufacturer is going to stress the air infiltration aspect since that one of the features that makes it superior to building felt.
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You really don't want to go down this road, do you?
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3D Peruna wrote:

Nope, it's a game shyster (or other) lawyers play, and I find it unsatisfying.
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George,
I've been following this thread with interest and I think there might be a couple points left to consider. First, water will make it's way behind even the most perfectly installed siding. In a normal rain shower, on an otherwise still day, the siding will indeed shed most of the water. Throw a big gust of wind into the picture though and all bets are off. Wind and/or wind induced pressure can drive or suck water up and behind the siding. Even in still weather, capilary action between close fitting claboards has been shown to draw in water, but this is probably much less of an issue than the wind driven rain. Once behind the siding, the only barrier is the housewrap or building (tar) paper. Without this barrier, rot, mold, and paint damage are just a few of the problems that can result. The amount and speed at which this damage can occur will vary widely based on a miriad of factors - frequency and severity of wetting, quality of the sheathing and siding, etc, etc. IMHO, a rainscreen wall constructed with either furing strips or one of the poly mesh products (i.e. EnkaMat or Obdyke Home Slicker) is the best way to ensure longevity. Whether you put the rainscreen over building paper or housewrap probably makes very little difference - it just needs to drain. Another purpose of the rainscreen is to keep the siding from directly contacting the housewrap (or building paper). Surficants in many siding products will cause housewrap to lose repellancy. The airspace helps protect against this. I was just told by one of my suppliers that one of the largest "corporate" builders in the Metro Seattle area recently decided to start using a poly mesh rainscreen on all their homes, to help limit their potential exposure to mold lawsuits. The Building Science folks are as far as I know the only unbiased agency out there doing careful and extensive research on the total building *systems* that have become common over the last twenty years. Their results have been published in many of the leading trade journals. I wouldn't be so quick to poo-poo their opinions. Finally, as far as saying what their product is good for, it's not really the "manufacturer" that does this. Technically, it's the manufacturers marketing department. At an outfit the size of Dupont, I'd bet the engineers who developed the product probably don't even work in the same city as the marketing guys who tell us what it's good for. The marketing guys will promote whatever uses tend to move the most product - end of story.
Regards,
Richard Johnson PE Camano Island, WA
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Rich-in-WA wrote:

Hey, I don't have any problem with your discussion, and somehow someone think that I said Tyvek doesn't repel water, it does, and some use it primarily for that purpose. Sure, water gets behind the siding under extreme circumstances such as high winds and it flows out and evaporates for the most part. Being moisten or even wetted occassionally is not particularly harmful to the structure if the moisture moves out quickly. Of course, if it gets behind the housewrap, it will not move out quickly, and that is why it is extremely important that you not have tears (or at least unrepaired tears) in a house wrap. I'm not sure how a rain screen is going to help the mold problem if you already use a house wrap.
My intent was not to poopoo the buildling science people. What I was saying was that they or individuals can say a material is good for this or that and it should be used, but as you pointed out it is the marketing department (the manufacturer has to sign off on what they say and the manufacturer is ultimately responsible for the statements) that promotes the use. Hell I though Tyvek was just good for 5-1/4" disk sleeves. Even though new uses are found by others, the manufacturer has to be a little careful about what he says the product will do and the uses he promotes or he will likely to be involved in fraud cases. Manufacturers do occasionally become unduly influenced by marketing people to promote uses that the research departments can not support and when they do, they usually end up in court and broken. All you have to do is look at ads to see that marketing people are mostly about flash and care little about facts or ethics. Still, it is not the marketing people but the actual manufacturer that has to bend over in the end (pun is intended).
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(Jeff Six) wrote:

Sorry but you are wrong.....a moisture barrier is required under the exterior veneer under the 2000 International Residential Code...specifically building felt or 'other approved material'

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