New Wire From Recep to Breaker

[John Ross]

The saga of my trying to get a few receptacles grounded continues....

Talked to another electrician, who wants to just run a new Romex cable (this is 1960 house with the old Romex with no ground in it) from the specific receptacle back to the panel (he hasn't come out yet to look at the place, but thinks he can run it the same place as original-- well, not the entire original--just up wall to attic and then to panel).

This sounds a lot cleaner than drilling holes in floor just for a ground wire etc. However, you guys have gotten me up to speed on the grounding issue, but I am clueless for something like this.

Is this considered legitimate? I assume you would have to connect the old wires together somehow in the receptacle so the other receptacles on the circuit are not cut off?

The other thing that I just thought of was when it gets back to the breaker, you will still have the old wiring connected to that breaker. So how would he end up with both connected to that breaker? Is there a code correct way to do this?

For the record, I almost gave up today after talking to 4 electricians who said some off the wall things (I'll tell you that later---you won''t believe it and I don't want this thread to go on a tangent. Suffice to say, this guy *sounded* like he had a clue, but then again I got duped before and you guys came to the rescue! :)

-- John

[beecrofter]

After reading this thread I am glad to not be an electrician.:)

[Doug Miller]

Probably, he's intending to run the cable to the *first* receptacle on the circuit.

Sure. Why wouldn't it be?

Same way they're connected now.

No, that would be disconnected and replaced by the new cable.

He wouldn't.

Yes -- and it sounds to me like this guy knows how to do it.

When he comes out to look at it, you can ask him exactly what he's planning to do -- if it doesn't sound right, tell him you'll get back to him in a day or two, and check it out here.

[John Ross]

No, he said just at the receptacle to be grounded. He's NOT rewiring the whole circuit.

The new cable is just for ONE outlet. The old cable will still be there for the other outlets, so it has to stay connected to the breaker, right?

Again, I assume the old wire has to still be connected to the breaker in some way.

You know I will--be ready! :)

[Doug Miller]

He doesn't have to rewire the whole circuit. The receptacle he runs the cable to will *become* the first receptacle on the circuit. Make sure he installs a GFCI receptacle there, and wires the downstream outlets to the LOAD side of the GFCI.

No. There's a cable going to the outlet in question now. That cable (or cables) can be used to supply power to the rest of the circuit. And the old cable from the breaker box to that circuit becomes redundant, and will be removed.

Why?

Consider: (view in a fixed-space font)

[Breaker Box]--------[outlet 1]------[outlet 2]-------[outlet 3]

Run the new cable to outlet 3:

[Breaker Box]--------[outlet 1]------[outlet 2]-------[outlet 3] | | +----------------------------------------------------+

The old cable between the breaker box and outlet 1 is completely unnecessary, and can (and should) be removed.

[HeyBub]

I dunno. With folks like this, seems an electrician could make bags of money.

[gfretwell]

Why GFCI the grounded one. Put the GFCI in the next one if you need 3 prong plugs.

[Doug Miller]

To provide ground-fault protection at that receptacle as well as the downstream ones.

Put it in the first one, and you have GFCI protection at all receptacles on the circuit, including the first.

Put it in the second, and you have GFCI protection at all receptacles on the circuit, *except* the first. What's the point in that?

[John Ross]

Ross

To make things easier for me to understand, let's forget about the GFCI (the whole point of this is I don't want it--I want a ground for a refrigerator and PC).

I guess I don't understand what the definition of "the first receptacle on the circuit" means. I assumed there had to be some linear connection whereby you start, for example, at the left side of a wall and run in a line to the end.

Are you saying it is arbitrary? For example, your example of outlet

1---2---3 you showed changing the connection from 1 to 3 (which still shows a linear beginning and end). What about if the receptacle in question is number 2? If the new cable from the breaker connects "in the middle" at outlet 2, is that considered acceptable?

thanks

-- John

[Doug Miller]

Well, you sure don't want to plug the refrigerator into a GFCI, but it would still be a good idea for the rest of the circuit.

The one that's directly connected to the breaker box.

That's the way it's usually done, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Not exactly arbitrary, although it may seem so. Circuits are usually wired in the manner that is fastest and easiest, which may not be the manner that uses the least wire. Even at today's copper prices, the electrician's time is still more valuable than the cable.

Certainly, provided that the box it's in is large enough to accomodate a third cable. (The electrical code limits the number of conductors that can be in a box, dependent on the size of the box, the size of the conductors, and whatever else is in the box.) Undersize boxes can usually be replaced by larger ones; any competent electrician will have no problem doing this, or finding an alternative solution in those rare cases when it's not possible.

[John Ross]

OK, I think I understand now. The only clarification I would ask is you previously used the term "downstream." In this new set up, does downstream mean *both* directions from the new "first" receptacle on the circuit (which is in the number 2 position above)?

Also, am I correct in realizing the weakness of this scheme is that it can only ground one outlet on a circuit (i.e. if you wanted two grounded, and they happened to be on the same circuit, you would have to pick only one)?

thanks

-- John

[Doug Miller]

Downstream = away from the breaker box. Upstream = toward the breaker box.

Yes.

If you're running a grounding conductor to only one outlet on a circuit, you can ground only that one outlet anyway, no matter what the topology of the circuit is, or which outlet you run the grounding conductor to. If you want two outlets grounded, you need to run grounding conductors to both of them.