HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A frame cover over it. It is 5' x 4' x5'2" deep. Has a jet pump wired straight from main panel at electric pole, 3 wires directly wired to pressure switch. 220 , I think.
Here's the question, is there any way to use the exisisting wiring to supply
110 power to shed? All I'm looking at is a couple of lights, a couple of plugs for minor tool usage.
With a transformer. Otherwise, you need four wires: two hots and ground (which you have already), and neutral (which you don't).
Isn't a stove 220? and it gets its 120 from one of the hot legs and the neutral.
As Doug said, he doesn't have a neutral, just two hot legs and a ground
Yes, of course -- but, as noted, he doesn't *have* a neutral. He has two hots and a ground.
Good Morning,
Can I run just a neutral? Please forgive my ignorance >>>>HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A frame
By "3 wires" you mean two hots and a ground? Then no, you can't do it legally. Running a neutral wire would, if nothing perverse ever happens, be safe; but since code watches out for perverse happenings, it wouldn't be legal.
You might want to check the voltage to be sure. My pump is 120v. Shouldn't be; the voltage drop is murder, but it is.
You could wire up 240v lights, but that wouldn't help you with the tool usage.
And before you do anything; make sure you have adequate capacity to add lights. If you are marginal now, the pump won't like sharing.
He did know what he was doing. You had him run a 240V line, and that's what he did. If you wanted 120V too, you needed to tell him that.
You can't. You need a fourth wire, not just for code compliance, but for safety as well.
Could the existing ground wire be converted to a neutral and a new ground rod be sunk at the pump shed?
Chris
No.
Multiple code and safety violations:
- The existing ground conductor is almost certainly uninsulated and therefore unsuitable for use as a neutral.
- The ground conductor at the shed would not be tied to the service entrance ground and could therefore be at a different potential. Google on "ground loop" for information regarding the dangers.
- This cannot be alleviated by running a separate conductor, either, as the Code requires that all circuit conductors be contained within the same cable or raceway.
The only safe and Code-compliant option I can see for the OP is to convert the circuit back to 120V to provide neutral and ground for the lights and outlets he wants, and either use a step-up transformer to provide 240V for the pump, or convert the pump back to 120V as he says it was originally.
Valid point.
Around here (Saskatchewan) separate buildings are allowed to have their own ground rods and a ground line is not required to be brought with the feeders (although it is allowed to omit the ground rod and bring ground in with the feeder lines, as long as the building doesn't house livestock).
Looking at the online 2005 NEC, 250.32 B(2) seems to discuss this case, in that it describes what to do with the "grounded conductor" when a "grounding conductor" is not brought along with the supply. Am I missing something here?
Chris
He did know what he was doing. You just failed to specify that you wanted additional capacity for expansion. Before you start messing around with trying to get different voltages and a nuetral out of your current set up, how much total power can you pull over the existing wire? Even if you had four wires, the hot leads are probably sized for the pump, which would leave you no excess capacity anyway.
You should break out the old shovel, and put in a new feeder line to a sub-panel in the shed, and re-route the feed to the well pump through that.
Failing that, mount some solar panels on the shed, and or feed a UPS through a transformer.
Note that many wells can't deliver water fast enough for fire-fighting purposes anyway. Systems that deliver 7GMP at a mere 40 PSI with 50Gallon pressure tanks aren't uncommon.
You really need a cistern with at least 500 gallon capacity, and a pump that can deliver 30 GPM at at least 75 PSI.
A better system would be 3-5,000 gallon reservoir, and 50GPM at 100+ PSI.
Hang on, before you guys get all upset, from what I can tell, what he buried was romex. Nothing fancy or special. And it's not the first time this guy has acted like he knew what he was doing, I've had him mess up an older motorhome I was remodeling as well, I wound up re doing that, not to mention a few other things. I'm not blaming him, I just should have known better and tried to do it myself. And for the books, I'm a 53 year old female. I often don't know the correct name for things, but I'm not afraid to try. I've changed the alternator in my car, it involved lowering the cardle and pulling a tie rod end, I've built a deck that is 10sf less than my house, remodeled a bath, installing a large garden tub, and last but not least, I put in a french door from my bedroom out onto the deck. So, Please, I'm willing to learn, teach me.
Thanks Kaye
Chris Friesen wrote:
Okay. Personally I wouldn't do this, but until the 20 years ago 240v applicance were allowed to put their unbalanced load from 120v uses back over the uninsulated neutral. In fact, the top element on my lower oven puts 10a back over the neutral. That is probably more than you would get from a few lights.
Is it safe? I have never heard of anyone getting hurt on the millions of such installations like that out there; but there is the potential for a problem. Probably safer than driving to the market, but since it is illegal... It is one thing to leave my 24 year old wiring in place; it is quite another to install another one.
I am posting this mainly to get Dougie upset.
Why don't you just crawl back under your bridge, troll? By this time, anybody who's been paying attention in this ng knows better than to take electrical advice from you.
If it was romex, then you really should pull it out and have it redone properly. Romex is neither permitted, nor safe, for underground use. You need Type UF (Underground Feeder) cable for this application.
[snip]OK, well -- you need a 4-wire UF cable, sized to the total load, and an appropriate double-pole circuit breaker. Or bury a conduit, and pull four THHN or THWN wires of the appropriate size.
One way or another, you need four wires.
So, Would I be better off converting the pump back to 110. Well is only used for house use. Single occupant. Have 7.5 hp pump for irrigating pasture and yard. It's located elsewhere. And how do I figure load?
thanks Kaye
Doug Miller wrote:
Okay Kaye, we need to know exactly what you're dealing with. You mentioned Romex buried underground. If it really is Romex (NM) and not UF then you are going to need to change it anyway. Romex is not rated for underground use and sooner or later moisture will get inside the conductors and they will just arc in the ground until the connection is broken.
If it is actually UF you have that is good. It is approved for direct burial and hopefully it is at least 18 inches underground. If it is UF we need to know what size is the wire. Is it #14, 12, 10? How many insulated conductors are there? One white, one black, one red? Hopefully there is a bare or green grounding conductor also. We also need to know the horsepower of the pump and the voltage it is currently wired for. We also need to know the approximate length of this wire from the source to the pump. We also need to know what is at the source for this circuit. Is it at your main panel where the meter is located? Is it on a two pole circuit breaker? What size breaker? Pictures would be very helpful.
With good information perhaps we can advise you of a possible solution that will be safe.
Right now based on what you have already told us I'm thinking that the whole circuit needs to be trashed. I would suggest installing a 1" or 1 1/4" PVC underground conduit and pull in a 40 or 50 amp circuit with four conductors. Install a subpanel in the pumphouse and feed your pump and everything else from that.
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