New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive

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On Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:02:06 AM UTC-5, HeyBub wrote:

Im the owner of New England Heating and Cooling. My name is robert, and my website address is http://www.newenglandheatingandcooling.com i've been in this bussiness for 20 years and i must disagree about cost on new 95% vs 80% AFUE furnace. First of all 95 and 96 % are very different from one another in cost and function. A 80% furnace with an output of 80,000 btu's will cost around 850$ and is around 600-800 to install. a 95 is a single stage furnace with an ecm motor in the blower section. This ECM motor is a huge cost upgrade and the control board to run it is also very costly. these motors start quiet and run on d.c. voltage and can cost up to 600$ alone. this 95% afue furnace is between 1200 and 1400. the 96 is a fully modulating burner furnace and an ECM motor combined. this furnace can run 1700-2500 depending on size and model#. it also requires a communicating thermostat that will run 150$ and the pvc venting associated with all 90+ units. after labor a 96% AFUE furnace can run 4000 if you have an inspection from the town. Your local inspectional services requires an electrician to installb a hard wired CO detector and the line voltage, a plumber for the gas line, and an hvac sheet metal mechanic to pull a mechanical permit for the ductwork. dont forget a condensate pump and a way to (legaly) discharge the condensate into the homes plumbing (it cant go outside due to the unit running in the winter and it could freeze, and some towns require an acid neutrilizer to be compliant with code. This is not a small job as it was so easily satted in the last post. as a matter of fact, venting is a small part of the increased cost of the higher efficiency furnaces mandated by the end of the year. if anyone has any questions about this issue feel free to call us at 781-535-2045 and we will try to help. Robert
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On Nov 29, 12:41am, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

As stated in the article, the new EPA regulation makes 90%+ the new minimum available in the northern states. So, the correct comparison isn't between 80% and 95%, it's between 80% and 90%.
First of all 95 and 96 % are very different from one another in cost and function. A 80% furnace with an output of 80,000 btu's will cost around 850$ and is around 600-800 to install. a 95 is a single stage furnace with an ecm motor in the blower section.
It's not true that 90% or even 95% means the furnace must have an ECM blower. 90%+ furnaces are available with conventional PSC type motors as well.
This ECM motor is a huge cost upgrade and the control board to run it is also very costly. these motors start quiet and run on d.c. voltage and can cost up to 600$ alone.
Yes, for a replacement part, probably true, because like any appliance, the manufacturer can get away with it. But clearly as part of a new furnace, the cost differential is maybe a couple hundred bucks. If I break a shelf in my fridge, it's gonna cost $75 too, but the cost for that shelf in the new appliance is probably $7.50. It is a fair issue that if it blows up, the repair cost could be substantially higher than a PSC motor and folks should factor that in, when deciding if they want an ECM motor. But this is a side issue, not directly relevant to the 90% reqpt because there are 90% furnaces available with PSC motors, just like the 80% ones, too.
this 95% afue furnace is between 1200 and 1400. the 96 is a fully modulating burner furnace and an ECM motor combined. this furnace can run 1700-2500 depending on size and model#. it also requires a communicating thermostat that will run 150$ and the pvc venting associated with all 90+ units. after labor a 96% AFUE furnace can run 4000 if you have an inspection from the town. Your local inspectional services requires an electrician to installb a hard wired CO detector and the line voltage, a plumber for the gas line, and an hvac sheet metal mechanic to pull a mechanical permit for the ductwork. dont forget a condensate pump and a way to (legaly) discharge the condensate into the homes plumbing (it cant go outside due to the unit running in the winter and it could freeze, and some towns require an acid neutrilizer to be compliant with code. This is not a small job as it was so easily satted in the last post. as a matter of fact, venting is a small part of the increased cost of the higher efficiency furnaces mandated by the end of the year. if anyone has any questions about this issue feel free to call us at 781-535-2045 and we will try to help. Robert- Hide quoted text -

Again, you're comparing the wrong things. You're comparing a 95% fully modulating, ECM blower furnace to a basic 80% model. The new regulation only says the minimum furnace has to be 90%. There are 90%+ furnaces available without all those extra features and they only cost a couple hundred more than the $800, 80% furnace.
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by:
"This is not a small job as it was so easily satted in the last post. as a matter of fact, venting is a small part of the increased cost of the higher efficiency furnaces mandated by the end of the year. "
If venting is a small part of the increased cost, then what other work is there that makes it "not a small job" as compared to an 80% furnace? Hauling it into the basement, gas work electrical, connecting to ducts, etc are the same. With the condensing furnace you do need to add a condensate pump, but that isn't a big deal either. I see the direct venting, particularly in some worse case scenarios, as being the biggest issue. And also, I thought the new rule goes into effect in May, not the end of the year?
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