New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive

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On 11/25/2012 2:40 PM, Normin wrote:

you're installing it in a vacation house, that you use every summer, and perhaps 2-3 weekends of the year in the winter time.
so you save $10 over the course of a year. still a good buy?
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It's not even a good idea accepting the numbers as given. The savings stated were $2300 over 15 years. That new furnace is gonna cost $4,000 TODAY. A new furnace today has a life expectancy of 15 years, maybe 20. So, you'll likely never break even. And that doesn't even factor in the time value of money.
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On 11/26/2012 5:48 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Sheeeesh! The comprehension skills of some people are extremely lacking.
Norman didn't suggest that you replace a working 80% efficiency furnace.
But if you >>> have <<< to replace your old furnace, it only makes economic sense to replace it with a 95% model.
For example, here's a 80% model for $662 http://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Natural-Gas-Furnace-Heater-p/11128.htm
and a 95% model for $872 http://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Natural-Gas-Furnace-Heater-p/19111.htm
Get it yet?
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On 11/26/2012 5:17 PM, chaniarts wrote:

A basic 60,000 btu 80% efficiency gas furnace is about $650
A basic 60,000 btu 95% efficiency gas furnace is about $900
It's only $250 difference, you prolly drop that much on a night on the town.
Besides, if you can afford two houses, you must be a wealthy Romney supporter. Obviously you can afford an energy efficient furnace for your luxury vacation home. Stop crying.
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No, the difference is whether the replacement furnace can use the existing venting system of the natural draft furnace. And there are 80% efficiency furnaces that can be vented using the existing chimney, even though they use a draft blower. If it's a condensing, direct vent type, then it cannot use the existing chimney or vent system of the natural draft furnace. Hence the article, pointing out that you could be in for increased costs, depending on how easy or how hard it is to run the required PVC piping to a suitable outside location.

most old

Yes, I agree. And those numbers the EPA is using to claim that this new rule will save 20% of the total energy use is pure BS. I live in NJ, which isn't the coldest place by a long shot and no one that I know of has installed less than a 90% furnace for years now. I went out for quotes myself two years ago and of 4 companies, not one even quoted less than a 90. You'd probably have to ask for one. And it would only make sense if you had some unique circumstance, where it was very expensive to be able to vent a 90% furnace.
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Stop spreading facts, won't help anyway.
This is the group filled with smart people that complain about every mandate they hear about, whether it's a good one or not.
Everyone knows, it's our job to burn all the combustibles now, our descendants can huddle together to stay warm.
--
Dan Espen

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Some of us just believe that it's not governments job to force us into a particular way of living by coming up with phoney BS stories. The EPA would have you believe that this is going to save 20% in energy costs? You believe that? Virtually no one here in NJ has been installing anything less than a 90% furnace for years now. And we don't have the coldest climate or highest heating bills. This is another sad example of the govt force feeding the public, which they believe is too stupid to act in their own best interests.
A tiny percentage of people living in cold climates would choose an 80% furnace moving forward. And some of them, probably have very good reasons if they are doing it. In other words, this is a non-existent, fake, phoney, BS problem.
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On 11/24/2012 11:29 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

It's the "one size fits all" aspect of government rules that are stifling us. As energy becomes more expensive it will naturally drive us to use more cost efficient units. We don't need it rammed down our throats.
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The EPA would have us believe that going from 80% to 90% is a 20% savings? Are you sure?
Might be time to introduce some facts into this thread.
Looked around. Doesn't look to me like S.398 has been passed. What do you think?
Check this out:
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s398/money

Yep, in this news group, all regulations are phony because the posters are so smart.
--
Dan Espen

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wrote:

Yeah, pretty much. Used to be able to burn leaves. Not now. Have to pay for front end loaders and dump trucks to haul them away. R-12. Catalytic converters. CFL's. No smoking in hospitals. On and on and on. This is the best part of the posted article.
"There’s still another concern — and another possible cost — if a home has a standard 40- or 50-gallon gas water heater. Those heaters are generally vented through the chimney along with the older furnaces. But after removing the old furnace venting pipe, there is not enough heat generated in the chimney by the water heater venting pipe alone to prevent condensation from occurring. And that condensation will include sulfuric acid, which can eat away at a chimney’s mortar joints. Re-venting the water heater could increase the total cost of the new furnace project by $3,000 to $4,000, Baum said."
So in that world gas furnaces run winter and summer to provide draft for the water heater. Strange world. But does add "$3,000 to $4,000" to get the Chicken Littles flapping and clucking.
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Not a strange world. The issue is that an orphaned water heater typically winds up on a chimney that is now way too small, because it was sized for both the water heater and a gas furnace. Drafting is NOT the issue. Condensation is. In the winter in a chimney that is not entirely contained within the heated part of the house, condensation occurs because the gases now cool off too much. With a furnace also running, the chimney was kept warm enough so that this would not happen. And that condensation, over time, will destroy the mortar in a chimney.
And the other issue is that this is a classic example of govt "fixing" a problem that does not exist. It's an obvious lie that this new rule is going to result in a 20% savings in total energy usage. All it does is force all people to do what probably 90%+ were already doing. And that is that when they decide to replace their gas furnace, it will be with one that is 90%+ efficient.
It never even sunk into their pea brains that to some extent, it could have precisely the opposite effect. Let's say someone has a 35 year old gas furnace. When it was new, it might have had a 70% efficiency. Now being old, it may be down to 50%. They looked at the alternatives and because of the way their house is contructed, putting in a direct vent one would cost too much. They would however put in an 80% one. But now, instead, they will choose to do nothing.
What's next? For the libs to mandate that we all breathe a certain number of times an hour too? Or more likely, continue to expand and control what we can eat, because only you libs are smart enough to know what's best for all of us and we must live by your rules? Leave me free to choose.
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I think you mean the chimney is way too large.
That said, I've helped install flue liners, for the water heater, in the cases where people put in a 90 percenter furnace.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
Not a strange world. The issue is that an orphaned water heater typically winds up on a chimney that is now way too small, because it was sized for both the water heater and a gas furnace. Drafting is NOT the issue. Condensation is. In the winter in a chimney that is not entirely contained within the heated part of the house, condensation occurs because the gases now cool off too much. With a furnace also running, the chimney was kept warm enough so that this would not happen. And that condensation, over time, will destroy the mortar in a chimney.
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On Nov 25, 8:12am, "Stormin Mormon"

Yes I did.

Yes, that's one very practical solution. But it's also one of those things that adds to the installation cost of the furnace. Assuming of course you don't just ignore it to win the bid.
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around here in pittsburgh the furnace typically used one flue a seperate flue for the water heater.
after all for a large part of the year the furnace would rarely if ever run..
in pittsburgh late april till mid october///
and its not a biggie to cut a hole in a concrete wall or block wall despite what some people think, direct vent is way better.......
overreaction to safety and efficency rules is just that overreaction...
i suggest to those people bothered by this that most rules are reasonable.
Take the NEC, we all benefit from safer and more efficent electrical systems, safer vehicles with better gas mileage etc etc
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wrote:

But untill the furnace was required, the stack temperature was also reasonable due to just the natural draft in the non-damped chimney. The problem comes when the stack is down around zero and the exhaust from the WH is not warm enough to cause a good draft - and you get CO poisoning in the house.

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On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 04:28:18 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Yabbut...winter or summer a water heater will run into a cold chimney. And so will the furnace. Chimneys cool off fast in winter. That's why there are few unlined chimneys left. Talking about NG only. Haven't had coal or oil in decades. Condensation talk is to sell liners to those who don't have them, or to now sell a hi-efficiency water heater with a dedicated vent. You still see the salesmen and cracker-barrel "experts" using the "orphaned" water heater draft argument, but when people realize the WH was always an orphan, they turn to the acid argument. Anyway, "$3,000 to $4,000" is a BS number. A typical SS liner is WAY less than "$3,000 to $4,000." And so is a typical high-efficiency HW tank with a dedicated vent. DISCLAIMER: Chimney condition is important for your safety, and the above isn't meant to suggest otherwise. If you don't know your chimney is in good condition, have it examined by a professional.
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wrote:

Geez, do you see condensation around the inside of windows in summer or winter? It happens 99% of the time in WINTER because of the colder temps. Water vapor plus COLD equals condesation. In the summer the part of a chimney that runs outside the heated area of a house could easily be 20F. In summer, it's 65 or 75.

If you run your gas furnace in summer, you're doing something wrong.

You're obviously an idiot. Condensation is a real issue. There are codes that specify the size of a chimney for the particular appliance. You can't just vent any size appliance into any size chimney. There is a max size allowed. It's like saying the issue of putting a 20 amp breaker on 14 gauge wire is just to sell breakers.

Again, it's only an issue in WINTER in cold climates. How do you get steam to condense? You COOL it off. With a chimney that supported both a furnace and a water heater, the furnace ran in the winter, keeping the chimney warm enough so that condensation was not a problem. With an orphaned water heater going into a LARGE chimney that was sized for both a furnace and a water heater, the exhaust from the water heater will easily condense in winter because it's moving slowly through a very large chimney. A chimney that is no longer sized correctly for either draft or condensation issues.

That part I agree with.

That's certainly true for the typical case. But we aren't talking just the typical case. The articles point was that there are cases out there that are NOt the typical case. Yet the govt is saying, "Screw you, you have no choice" In other words, it's using BS numbers, ie saving 20% in total heating energy costs across all homes, to justify forcing something down onto the public to fix a non-existent problem.

Good idea, since like usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 05:29:20 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

So is the hole in the ozone layer. And global warming. As expected from you, you can't keep up. Water heater flues flow into cold chimneys all winter. Sunny days can keep the furnace off for hours. Chimney is cold. Water heater lights up. Happens all the time, and has for ages. Deny that all you want. Most chimney flues are lined. Mine is lined with SS. Also has a condensate drain. That should be addressed when replacing/upgrading a furnace. Had mine installed 17 years ago. I call that "home maintenance." Wasn't required by code. Chimneys are not collapsing all across the country from acid corrosion or freeze/thaw spalling. A furnace and WH are independent actors. Always have been.

No sense at all there. Chimneys don't work by electricity. Codes were/are written for furnace/WH running, furnace only, WH only. Remove furnace or WH from the stack, and the other works just fine. An old house with chimney venting installed before codes, or adequate codes, should face the local inspector. Probable worst case is you have to install a liner, Because of draft, not condensation. CO is the big issue with an over-sized chimney. You're a cracker-barrel type guy, and a good target for salesmen. That's okay. Takes ll kinds.
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If it's that sunny and mild in winter so that the furnace stays off for hours, then the chimney is also not that cold, hence any condensation will be minimal. Now look at the real problem. The days and nights when it's 20 or 10F. You have a chimney that was sized for a big old honking furnace and water heater. Now all that goes up it is the water heater, once in a while. Result: Condensation. In fact, all the water is condensing inside the chimney. If it's a masonry chimney, the acid in that water will destroy it over time

Most flues are not lined. The orphaned water heater problem is specific to masonry chimneys. The solution is to line it.

What, your condensate drain?

You wouldn't know what is or isn't required by code. You think chimney sizing isn't covered by code. It sure as hell is here, in NJ and other states that follow the national fuel gas code.

According to you and your flapping gums. Here are just a few of the many credible sources that say you're wrong:
This one is from govt, so being a lib that love govt, you should like it:
http://mn.gov/commerce/energy/images/OrphanedWaterHeaters.pdf
Beware the Orphaned Water Heater In the past, older furnaces, boilers, and water heaters would frequently share the same chimney to exhaust flue gasses. Todays high-efficiency boilers and furnaces bypass the old chimney and are vented through separate PVC piping. If the old atmospherically-vented gas water heater is not replaced with a high-efficiency direct-vented unit when the furnace/boiler is upgraded, the water heater venting can become orphaned and lead to a potentially dangerous carbon monoxide hazard. Under some circumstances, the old chimney may not adequately exhaust the water heaters combustion products, resulting in spillage back into the home.
Here's one from a home inspection website:
http://www.totalhomeinspection.com/hints_chimneys.shtml
Chimneys - When a Flue is Too Big
Most older homes, especially in the Northeast, use masonry chimneys to vent their combustion appliances. During the past ten years, many old furnaces and boilers have been gradually replaced with higher- efficiency models that use PVC sidewall vents. When an older furnace is disconnected from a masonry chimney, it may leave behind a so- called "orphaned" water heater, attached to a flue that is now oversized.
However, when it comes to sizing a flue, bigger isn't always better. Oversized flues can contribute to at least three problems: poor draft, chimney corrosion, and freeze/thaw damage to the chimney.
Here's one from Cornell. You libs like govt and academia, right?
http://www.human.cornell.edu/dea/outreach/upload/FAQs-txt-for-w-page-8-2012.pdf
What is an orphaned water heater and what can be done to avoid problems associated with an orphaned water heater?
A: Orphaned water heater is a term used to describe a storage tank style residential domestic hot water heater that gets left alone as the only combustion appliance vented to a chimney after a furnace or boiler is removed. This usually happens when an older furnace or boiler is replaced by a new and much more efficient model. These newer heating systems capture more heat from the combustion process than older systems. The result is that the temperature of the flue gasses in newer systems is much lower compared to older, less efficient systems. Since the temperatures of the flue gasses are cooler, it makes it possible to vent them directly to the outdoors via a plastic pipe. A fan, built into the furnace or boiler is used to blow combustion gasses through the vent pipe directly to the outdoors. 5 Revised 2012-07 To understand how orphaned water heaters can create problems, it is useful to first think about how a chimney works. A chimney is basically a hollow vertical column with an opening at the top that is exposed to the outdoors. The chimney also has an opening near the bottom that is typically accessed through the basement wall of the house. Exhaust gasses from combustion appliances are directed to this hole near the bottom of the chimney via a metal duct called a flue. Combustion appliances that are relatively inefficient loose lots of heat to the exhaust gasses. It is the heat contained within the combustion gasses that create the natural forces-hot air rises- that draws exhaust gasses up and out of the chimney. If the combustion gasses being directed to the chimney by a combustion appliance are not hot enough, or do not create a sufficient volume of hot air to initiate the draft of the gasses up the chimney, then the combustion gasses spill back into the home. Combustion gasses contain many harmful chemicals, including lethal carbon monoxide, so spillage of those gasses into a home can be very dangerous. And exhaust gasses from natural gas or liquefied petroleum gas (propane) appliances are virtually odorless and invisible. This means if spillage is occurring regularly in homes with orphaned gas water heaters, occupants are usually not aware of the problem until they begin experiencing negative health effects. Spillage is not the only problem that can occur. Since combustion gasses contain significant amounts of water vapor, there is now a risk of condensation forming within the chimney. For example, on a cold winter day, the walls of the chimney may be cold enough so that the water vapor contained within the combustion gasses will condense. When this occurs over time, the acidic condensate can destroy the chimney.
As to chimneys not collapsing, here's some photos of some that have substantial condensation damage:
http://activerain.com/blogsview/339287/efflorescence-on-chimneys
http://www.brothers-masonry-restoration.com/photogalary.html
http://localism.com/blog/ny/posts/3010872/PICTURE-OF-THE-MONTH

Yeah, there is no sense there, because you're flat out wrong. The national fuel gas codes specify permitted chimney sizing relative to the size of the appliances connected.

Oh, really? Adequate codes according to whom, you? Around here, NJ, you need a permit and inspection to replace a furnace period. I would think that would be the case in many other jurisdictions as well.

Well, you're starting to learn. But why would that be? You just told us two paragraphs ago that chimney size doesn't matter. Now, suddenly it does.

And you're an imbecile. Now go and google "orphaned water heater" You might learn something instead of continuing to make an ass of yourself.
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:31:42 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Only part worth leaving in, since it exemplifies your approach to "reason." Of course I googled it and know about the "7 times" rule and all. So what? Doesn't mean you aren't an asshole, does it?
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