New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive

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On 11/26/2012 1:07 PM, George wrote:

Not you. Most 10 year-olds can write a comprehensible sentence.
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See, here's the problem. You have no arguments on the facts. You don't even know the facts. Yet you want to tell the rest of us how to live. In fact, you're so dumb that you gave your endorsement to the idea that you can't afford not to get a new furnace if you can save $2,300 in fuel cost over the next 15 years. Only problem, which even a 10 year old could figure out, is that the new furnace is gonna cost $4,000. And that doesn't even factor in the time value of money, a concept which I'm quite sure is beyone your grasp. And I think a lot of folks here will tell you that the life expectancy of a new furnace you buy today is 15 years or so. So, what you think is a swell idea, is actually a losing proposition.
So, yeah, when I see someone dumb as a brick endorsing forcing their ideas on the rest of us through big govt, because they think we're the dumb ones, I get annoyed.
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On 11/26/2012 5:45 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I fully understand you have a filter which only allows you to consider one point of view and everyone else is stupid. I still don't get what you hope to accomplish by behaving like a 10 year old with the name calling.
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Excuse me, name calling? What name exactly did I call you? YOU on the other hand just called me a ten year old and accused me of extreme right wing thinking, just because I think citizens are smart enough and should have the freedom to choose the furnace they want without govt forcing it on them. Yet YOU accuse me of considering others stupid? You are one of the folks here claiming people are too stupid to choose a furnace that makes economic sense for them and they need guys like you to do it for them.
In fact, all you appear capable of are general vague accusations, which is all you're left with since you have no refutation of the facts that I have given you repeatedly.
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 05:03:37 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Sure, I can see it, mine is down 39%. But the problem is, people don't "see" it until the job is done and money spent. They see fancy doo-dads and that is what they are easily sold. There are many ways of constructing a house that is greatly more energy efficient, yet most are build the same way they have been for 200+ years. Would you build with SIPS or ICF's? How many houses built that way are you aware of? Many builders are unaware of them, consumers even less so.
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A friend locally built a house with sips - that he designed and built. Had one heck of a time getting the building department to OK his plans till he drove his truck up one of the walls as a ramp to demonstrate the strength of the panel.. This was 20 some years ago.
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On 11/26/2012 10:57 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

A friend had their new house built with ICFs maybe 5 years ago. I went there to see them do it. You feel like you are in a bank vault and their energy use is really low. A family member who is a contractor has had poor results selling the idea. As you noted customers go for the "shiny stuff".
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wrote:

There is a large number of multi-unit residential buildings being built using ICF in Waterloo Region (ontario) as well as some commercial and numerous high end single family dwellings.
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On 11/25/2012 11:09 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

But stuff like safety features and fuel economy are proven not to be big selling points. Take a pickup truck frame and fluff it up with every possible feature and a huge engine and it sells itself because of the imagined status.
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Which proves exactly what? That you want to stop people from buying a pickup truck too?
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On 11/26/2012 11:32 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

In answers your question about what sells in a marketplace.
Honest question. Are you capable of anything beside total right wing extremist thinking?
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I don't believe it's right wing extremist thinking to believe that govt should not be passing more rules to regulate non-existent problems and in the process creating a bigger govt that's taking away more and more of our freedoms. And I don't think it's extremist right wing thinking to believe that people have enough sense to figure out if an 80% or 90% furnace is right for them and then make their own choice. In other words, I don't have the condescending attitude that I or govt knows what's best for everyone and the gall to use govt to force them into it.
Is it right wing to point out that this is a non-problem? That people are already moving to 90%+ furnaces when it makes sense for them? That of 4 contractors, not one even quoted me less than a 90% furnace two years ago? That it's wrong to use the heavy hand of govt to then force the small minority that may have valid perfectly valid reasons for choosing an 80% furnace to instead use a 90%?
Why can't libs just leave people free to choose? Is that so right wing extreme?
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Aparently, you and I must be right wing extremists. At least, according to them.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
Why can't libs just leave people free to choose? Is that so right wing extreme?
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:19:30 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Because you don't get the fun of controlling people if you can't tell them what to do with every minute of their life and every dollar of what the government decides you can earn.
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because one Cuyahoga River on fire was one too many?
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FInd it somewhat telling that you have to go all the way back to '69 for your example.
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Soon condensing water heaters will be required too. and absolutely required when a furnace is replaced......... ending the orphaned flue issue.
this might be a good thing:) have you ever considered how much heated building air must exhaust ot chimney flues each year.........
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bob haller wrote:

I am all for such regulation applying to new builds - there:
1) Developers are usually cheapskates and need to be forced - it's not them paying the subsequent heating bills;
2) It's a very tiny relative incremental cost at design/build time.
Same with having good insulation (particularly in colder parts).
I, speaking from a Brit perspective, where we've had this condensing boiler requirement since 2005, am against forcing replacements to be upto new build specifications. There, it should be down to the home owner being able to make an informed choice.
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what's wrong with 1969? does that make the river catching on fire any less significant that say the BP oil fiasco in the Gulf or the recent compounding pharmacy cock-up? or should we just ignore the drugs removed from market like thalidomide, troglitazone, alosetron, cisapride, amineptine, phenylpropanolamine, tovafloxacin, avandia and lots more? of course there's always Love Canal.
then there's always that lead that finds its way into food imports from China or the great Drywall disaster.
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On Nov 27, 6:57pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" <atlas-

Both BP and the compounding pharmacy in MA were under the regulation and inspection of govt. The federal govt in the case of BP and both the fed and state govts in the case of the pharmacy. So, clearly significant events still apparently occur with or without govt regulation. And no one died in the river fire.....
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