New gas furnace/AC recommendations?

Page 7 of 9  
.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

Post a link to an example warranty, where it states exactly that.

So if you are a recognized seller and installer of Trane, and if I buy a new Trane furnace on my own, how can you say that you're not "authorized" to install it?

Pedro will handle the warranty work for me, because he wants the business.

Pedro will handle the warranty work for me, because he wants the business.
Besides, I thought these new furnaces were sooooo much more reliable than my POS 36 year-old furnace - right?
After all, according to you blow-hardts, these new furnaces with their electronics sensors and ECM motors are bullet-proof - right?

Looks like I touched a nerve with all you HVAC installer crooks.
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.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

Here's what I'll do.
I'll call your company and ask for a quote for a furnace. You'll send out one of your sales guys (who might also be a tech / installer) and he'll measure and scope out my house and I'll end up getting a quote for 2 or 3 difference furnaces. I'll ask him if he's an installer. If he says no, I'll ask him for a name or two of one of your installers.
I'll then buy one of those furnaces from an internet retailer, have it delivered, and I'll bring it downstairs to my basement. I'll pay probably about $1250 +/- 250 for the furnace, probably close to half of what's on your quote (assuming you even break out the price of the hardware on your quotes).
I'll then call one of your installers and I'll offer him $750 cash under the table to install the furnace the next weekend (or when-ever it's conveinent for him). I'll get his HVAC license number for the warranty card that came with the furnace, and I'll even fill in your company on the warrany card if there's a line for that, and I'll send in the warranty to the manufacturer for future coverage.
I'll tell your guy that if there's a problem with the furnace in the future, I'll call him and pay him under the table to perform any servicing and warranty repair work, and he'll say that he'll be happy to do it.
I'll probably save $2k after all is said and done.
How does that work for you? I'm sure you won't mind.
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Home Guy wrote:

Oh wait, I forgot.
If I don't buy the furnace from you, you might not get that incentive reward from Goodman or Trane or York. You know, the free trip to Hawaii?
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On Dec 15, 8:32 pm, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

I think HomeGuy wanted an example of an HVAC company denying warranty coverage because eqpt was bought from a non-authorized source? I think this should settle that requestt:
http://www.rheem.com/Products/Heating_and_Cooling/consumer_protection /
"Question: Does Rheem approve any online resellers of HVAC equipment? Answer: Rheem does not endorse, approve, or certify any online sale of its products through auction websites, online retailers or any other method of online sales direct to consumers without an in-person site visit, inspection, and installation by a qualified, trained HVAC professional).
Q: What happens if I purchase Rheem equipment from an online sales company? Answer: Rheem published warranties are not applicable for any equipment manufactured by Rheem that has been sold direct to the consumer via the internet or auction websites without an in-person site visit, inspection, and installation by a qualified, trained HVAC professional"
If that's not enough, here's what Trane's warranty says: http://www.trane.com/Residential/Downloads/Warranty/XR15%20Heat%20Pump%20and%20AC.pdf
"This limited warranty does not apply if the unit was purchaed direct (ie from internet websites or auctions) on an uninstalled basis."
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Perhaps Rheem can explain why they sell their products to internet-based retailers in the first place.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Dunno... I took an A/C compressor I bought off the net to my local Chevrolet dealership. The service department was happy to install it, vacuum the system, and recharge everthing. Doing so converted a $700 job to a $250 one.
That was four years ago. The A/C still works swell.

You hang with the wrong crowd. My son has a Guatamalan neighbor. The neighbor works for an A/C contractor and moonlights on the side. The neighbor, in turn, knows a fellow countryman who makes a market in used equipment.
So, after Hurricane Yikes destroyed my condensing unit, I told my son, who visited with his neighbor, and two nights later I had a two-year old, two-and-a-half ton, condensing unit installed, charged, and working admirably for seven hundred bucks.
As to "guarantees," my son's neighbor knows I know where he lives and he also knows I carry a gun.
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wrote:

    Yeh, and someone else two blocks over was missing theirs :-)

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Steve wrote:

=======================http://www.acoverstock.com/goodman-warranty
AcOverstock Equipment Warranty Guidelines
(Including Goodman, Ruud, York, Mitsubishi)
All manufacturers warranties on equipment purchased from AcOverstock.com will be honored providing you abide by the following guidelines:
1. You must have your system installed by a licensed, EPA certified HVAC-R Contractor. (It is required that your system be checked, started up and signed-off on by a licensed AC & heating contractor prior to use.)
2. You must comply with all federal refrigerant handling laws.
3. Please keep a copy of the installation ticket in a safe place for your records.
4. Please make sure that all your ductwork is properly sized including all supply and return installation work.
5. Comply with all permitting regulations where required.
6. Always conform with applicable local and state codes.
7. Electrical connections should only be made by a licensed electrical contractor.
8. Unqualified persons should never attempt installation of this or any HVAC system.
* Failure to comply with these guidelines and provisions will void all factory warranties. ======================== Also:
==================http://ezinearticles.com/?Goodman-Gas-Furnace-Prices-and-Goodman-Warranty-Policies-When-Buying-a-Gas-Furnace-on-the-Internet&id451441
Goodman Gas Furnace Prices and Goodman Warranty Policies When Buying a Gas Furnace on the Internet
By Jimmy Avallone
Many people who purchase new heating and air conditioning equipment through the internet are concerned whether their equipment is still warranted by manufacturer. There is much misinformation out there and this article is being written to explain how manufacturer guidelines for warranties are applied when purchasing this equipment through an internet store. Especially when it is specific to internet sales of Goodman air conditioning equipment. Goodman is the most common internet brand for HVAC equipment sold over the internet at this time and their company has gone out of their way to make it known that they will not warranty equipment to homeowners who purchase equipment over the internet if they decide to install it themselves.
Goodman has informed contractors that if they have an internet presence then they must state warranty guidelines clearly. Especially when it comes to Goodman Gas Furnaces due to the liabilities and danger in installing a gas furnace when not installed by a licensed HVAC professional.
If you are a licensed mechanical and HVAC contractor and EPA certified to buy and sell and install HVAC equipment, then you will be responsible for handling warranty claims and the manufacturer is responsible for providing for that warranty provided the guidelines below are met by both the consumer and the dealer/seller. The manufacturers warranty, like the sale of a car or other product sold by a licensed dealer, is passed through the company or dealer to the consumer regardless of through which means they make their purchase. Consumers who purchase heating and air conditioning through the internet should also receive an additional labor warranty from the licensed professional who performs the installation. Labor warranties on the installation of heating and air conditioning typically are good for 1 year. Consumers can also pay an additional charge to extend the labor warranty beyond 1 year. This is provided by your qualified local licensed installer. These warranty policies are stated as follows:
Air Conditioning and Heating Equipment Warranty Guidelines - Including brands by Goodman, Rheem, Ruud, York, Mitsubishi, or Pridiom heating and air conditioning equipment
All manufacturers warranties on equipment purchased through the World Wide Web will be honored providing you abide by the following guidelines:
1. You must have your system installed by a licensed, EPA certified HVAC-R Contractor. (It is required that your system be checked, started up and signed-off on by a licensed AC & heating contractor prior to use.)
2. You must comply with all federal refrigerant handling laws.
3. Please keep a copy of the installation ticket in a safe place for your records.
4. Please make sure that all your ductwork is properly sized including all supply and return installation work.
5. Comply with all permitting regulations where required.
6. Always conform with applicable local and state codes.
7. Electrical connections should only be made by a licensed electrical contractor.
8.Unqualified persons should never attempt installation of this or any HVAC system.
*Failure to comply with these guidelines and provisions will void all factory warranties.
http://www.acoverstock.com/goodman-warranty
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Jimmy_Avallone      ================================= Here is a copy of Goodman's warrany sheet for about a dozen of their GMV, GCH, GDH, GMS and GDE furnaces:
http://www.goodmanmfg.com/Portals/0/pdf/Warranties/PWCFURNUD.pdf
The Heat exchange is covered by it's own warranty, and all remaining parts by another warranty. There does not seem to be any factory or manufacturer warranty coverage specifically for the labor costs to replace bad parts. Most likey, you (the customer) are "buying" this labor coverage as part of the exhorbitant mark-up when you purchase the furnace from your local HVAC crook/installer/dealer.
Regarding these two warranties, the warranty contract says this:
---------------------------- The HEAT EXCHANGER is warranted for the owner’s LIFETIME or for so long as the owner owns the home in which the unit was originally installed (whichever ends first), and all remaining parts are warranted for a period of 10 YEARS, except as provided below.
Neither warranty applies to, and no warranty is offered by Goodman on, any unit ordered over the Internet, by telephone or other electronic means unless the dealer selling the unit over the Internet, by telephone or other electronic means is also the installing contractor for the unit. ----------------------------
I would imagine that such a clause limiting warranty coverage on the basis of such electronic commerce is in violation of Federal "restraint of trade" laws or other such trade legislation or inter-state commerce laws.
In any case, it seems that in most cases it is the customer's responsibility to fill out the supplied warranty information package and send it directly to the manufacturer, usually within 60 days of installation.
I intend to call Goodman's Consumer Affairs tommorrow (1-877-254-4729) and ask them for exact clarification as to whether or not they are aware of internet sales of their HVAC products, if they have an explanation as to how those products end up in the internet retail market, and how they know for sure that a part returned to them or replaced by them belongs to a furnace that *wasn't* purchased via internet retailer.
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Home Guy wrote:

So I called Goodman and I asked how the warranty works when I buy a furnace from an on-line retailer, and they said they don't honor the warrany in those cases - I think it's because they don't want to deal directly with the public - they'd rather deal with dealers when it comes to parts replacement.
Anyone buying a furnace off the net is more likely to try to contact the manufacturer directly vs a local HVAC dealer when fixing their furnace, and probably the first mistake they'll make is to tell the manufacturer where they bought it. That lets the manufacturer weazel out of their warranty obligation by mentioning the (likely illegal) clause about the warranty being voided because of "electronic" sale vs dealer sale.
They acknowledged that unless I tell them I bought it from an internet retailer that they have no way of knowing, and that if I have warranty repairs done by a local contractor that most likely the contractor will have no problems dealing with Goodman as far as the parts go so it won't be a big deal anyways. Even if I installed the furnace myself and a part went bad and I took the part into a local HVAC dealer, I could probably still have the part covered by the warranty and get a replacement from the dealer (assuming the part is still covered under the warranty period).
I asked why they sell their furnaces to electronic / internet retailers in the first place, and they said they have no control over how those furnaces are re-sold, and it might even be "illegal" to refuse to do business with those retailers (restraint-of-trade laws).
Bottom line is that I don't see how it can be legal for a manufacturer to void a warranty on a product based on who sold you the product or how you purchased the product. That would be discrimination against the retailer who lawfully purchased the product from the manufacturer for retail re-sale to an end-customer in a manner that is essentially identical to a local dealer who purchases the produce from a manufacturer for re-sale to an end-customer.
I think a careful re-reading of what I posted previously will show that Goodman and other companies DO infact provide warranty coverage for systems purchased over the internet, and they provide that coverage through the licensed person or company that performed the installation of said system.
Here is part of what I posted previously:
==========================================If you are a licensed mechanical and HVAC contractor and EPA certified to buy and sell and install HVAC equipment, then you will be responsible for handling warranty claims and the manufacturer is responsible for providing for that warranty provided the guidelines below are met by both the consumer and the dealer/seller.
The manufacturers warranty, like the sale of a car or other product sold by a licensed dealer, is passed through the company or dealer to the consumer regardless of through which means they make their purchase. Consumers who purchase heating and air conditioning through the internet should also receive an additional labor warranty from the licensed professional who performs the installation. Labor warranties on the installation of heating and air conditioning typically are good for 1 year. Consumers can also pay an additional charge to extend the labor warranty beyond 1 year. This is provided by your qualified local licensed installer. These warranty policies are stated as follows: ======================================== Those policies follow below. I just want to interject here and re-state what is mentioned above.
First, HVAC manufacturers do not (as a rule) provide any coverage for the labor component for parts replacement. The consumer is paying for that labor coverage as part of the inflated cost he's paying to the HVAC dealer/installer.
Second, if you have a licensed contractor / installer perform the installation of the unit that you buy from an internet retailer, then you have satisfied the terms of the manufacturer's warranty.
It would probably be useful in these cases to ask your local HVAC installer to quote you for installation of a furnace that you've purchased and delivered to your basement through your own means, and to break out the cost for the labor warranty separately from the installation cost. You may find it cost-effective to forego the installer's labor warranty.
Also, I would stipulate that in any such installation contract, that the contractor agrees to not decline requests to service the unit in the future (with the labor to be paid by the customer if the customer has declined labor coverage) and that the contractor agrees to handle the replacement of broken parts still covered under the manufacturer's warranty - even if the customer removes and replaces those parts himself.
With that said, here are the policy terms continuing from the above quote:
====================================Air Conditioning and Heating Equipment Warranty Guidelines - Including brands by Goodman, Rheem, Ruud, York, Mitsubishi, or Pridiom heating and air conditioning equipment
All manufacturers warranties on equipment purchased through the World Wide Web will be honored providing you abide by the following guidelines:
1. You must have your system installed by a licensed, EPA certified HVAC-R Contractor. (It is required that your system be checked, started up and signed-off on by a licensed AC & heating contractor prior to use.)
2. You must comply with all federal refrigerant handling laws.
3. Please keep a copy of the installation ticket in a safe place for your records.
4. Please make sure that all your ductwork is properly sized including all supply and return installation work.
5. Comply with all permitting regulations where required.
6. Always conform with applicable local and state codes.
7. Electrical connections should only be made by a licensed electrical contractor.
8.Unqualified persons should never attempt installation of this or any HVAC system.
*Failure to comply with these guidelines and provisions will void all factory warranties. ============================== References:
http://www.goodmanmfg.com/Portals/0/pdf/Warranties/PWCFURNUD.pdf
http://www.acoverstock.com/goodman-warranty
http://ezinearticles.com/?Goodman-Gas-Furnace-Prices-and-Goodman-Warranty-Policies-When-Buying-a-Gas-Furnace-on-the-Internet&id451441
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    Gee, I wonder why ? Maybe, as has been said here so many times for so many years, the quality and correctness of the installation is the primary determinant of the lifespan and performance of the equipment ? Far above and beyond any considerations of brand, features, etc ?
    A correctly sized and installed ( pick any brand you think sucks ) will far out-perform and out-last an incorrectly sized and poorly installed ( pick any brand you think is great ), that's a fact.

    Most brands do, probably including Goodman. They know, by serial number, what units were sold to what dealers or supply houses, on what date, etc.

    Bullshit. No, you can not.

    Might be.

    Add it to the long list of 'things you don't see'.
    Any hope of you going away now ? Please ?
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On Dec 17, 9:59 am, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

Maybe HomeGuy should take this up with the courts. I doubt he will have any success. It's not at all unusual for manufacturer's to require that the product be purchased and installed from an authorized dealer for the warranty to be honored.
I also seriously doubt that there are any restraint in trade issues with a company choosing to not do business with internet companies that can't install the eqpt and instead just sell it to anyone, anywhere For one thing, they would not be saying you can't sell it on the internet. Only that if you do so, you have to be responsible for the whole sale, including installation. That's a simple issue of protecting the company's image, reliability, insuring customer satisfaction, etc. Take a company like Harley. Does anyone think a case could be made that they are restricting trade because they don't allow just anyone to be a dealer? Or that they can legally deny someone the right to just sell the MC on the internet and ship it in a box?
In reality, some of these companies are probably selling the stuff to these online outlets because they are as greedy as the next company, and looking to increase sales. Some of it also could be getting to online shops via intermediaries, ie other wholesalers who are looking to move more product.
Regarding getting the warranty honored anyway, I would not be surprised if it were honored, IF you met all the requirements. I noticed at least on company, Rheem or Trane, maybe both, require the product to be REGISTERED within a couple months of install for the entire warranty to be honored. I'm sure as part of that process, they damn well ask for who supplied it and installed it. Maybe you could fudge and get by that, don't know.
The thing that gets me in all this is that I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable price to get a system installed. But what I'm seeing here in NJ, is that for a 100K BTU furnace and 5 ton AC, the lowest quote I have allows for $4000 installation above what I can buy the eqpt for. I factored in everything I could think of, eg, eqpt, lines, disconnect, whip, 410A, chimney liner, and it still comes out that they are getting $4000 to install it. I figure it should take 2 guys 1 day. If they charged $100/hr, that's $1600. If it takes 2 full days, that's still only $3200. Actually, in this economy I'm shocked that it can be this high.
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On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 08:42:22 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

    They DO ask that. And require it. Then they track their dealers in re customer complaints, warranty returns / submissions, etc, and they WILL stop doing business with dealers that have high problem rates. Again, to protect their product reputation.

    Steve will gladly supply you a 3 page list of things you forgot ;-)
    The difference is between 'having a website, with a warehouse someplace and some minimum wage droids driving a forklift', vs 'having a local business, with trained employees, insurance, trucks, tools, stock, advertising, insurance, covering warranties and call-backs, 24 hour / day on-site trained person service, 'standing behind their product and work', etc etc'.
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wrote:

Maybe HomeGuy should take this up with the courts. I doubt he will have any success. It's not at all unusual for manufacturer's to require that the product be purchased and installed from an authorized dealer for the warranty to be honored.
I also seriously doubt that there are any restraint in trade issues with a company choosing to not do business with internet companies that can't install the eqpt and instead just sell it to anyone, anywhere For one thing, they would not be saying you can't sell it on the internet. Only that if you do so, you have to be responsible for the whole sale, including installation. That's a simple issue of protecting the company's image, reliability, insuring customer satisfaction, etc. Take a company like Harley. Does anyone think a case could be made that they are restricting trade because they don't allow just anyone to be a dealer? Or that they can legally deny someone the right to just sell the MC on the internet and ship it in a box?
In reality, some of these companies are probably selling the stuff to these online outlets because they are as greedy as the next company, and looking to increase sales. Some of it also could be getting to online shops via intermediaries, ie other wholesalers who are looking to move more product.
Regarding getting the warranty honored anyway, I would not be surprised if it were honored, IF you met all the requirements. I noticed at least on company, Rheem or Trane, maybe both, require the product to be REGISTERED within a couple months of install for the entire warranty to be honored. I'm sure as part of that process, they damn well ask for who supplied it and installed it. Maybe you could fudge and get by that, don't know.
The thing that gets me in all this is that I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable price to get a system installed. But what I'm seeing here in NJ, is that for a 100K BTU furnace and 5 ton AC, the lowest quote I have allows for $4000 installation above what I can buy the eqpt for. I factored in everything I could think of, eg, eqpt, lines, disconnect, whip, 410A, chimney liner, and it still comes out that they are getting $4000 to install it. I figure it should take 2 guys 1 day. If they charged $100/hr, that's $1600. If it takes 2 full days, that's still only $3200. Actually, in this economy I'm shocked that it can be this high.
---------------------------------------------------------------
In this economy, *EVERYTHING* is high, and there are a hell of a lot more things to be paid for than *JUST* your installers salaries.
for a 5 ton A/C in New Jersey, you got to have one hell of a big house. Here in south Mississippi where we have 9 months of summer(90F+), and brutal humidity levels, I would most likely install 5 tons in around 3500sqft.
From my company, complete installation of an "entry level" 5ton 13SEER A/C, with 100,000btu 80+ AFUE 2stage. variable speed(ECM) gas furnace, you would be looking at $8200 plus sales tax installed. Prices on "Prestige" systems and "Premium" systems are higher. We do everything on flat rate... the price we quote, is the price you pay, and it doesn't matter if it takes 3 minutes, or 3 hours, or 3 days. We do not charge "labor". Our prices are printed in a book, and are not subject to negotiation. We do not "break down" our pricing any more than Walmart does. We *DO NOT* install any parts or equipment that were not purchased through us, strictly because of liability and warranty issues.
Any legitmate company will have the simular policies.
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I realize that. And I was never counting installers salaries at all. What I was factoring in was a reasonable labor rate charged to me. The installers are obviously getting a lot less than that. Around here, you go to the major auto dealers for service and they are charging the customer around $100/hr labor rate. That includes the wages, overhead, profit, etc sufficient to run the business.

3150 sq ft. And we have 90+ deg with high humidity too. Not as many days as you, I'm sure, but I still need the capacity for those days, no?

That's almost exactly what the lowest quote I have here for the Rheem system is. So, here's my issue. When I account for all the materials, I can buy them for about $4200. That's shipped here and me buying qty one. That leaves $4,000 to cover the labor of install. Allowing $100/hr for labor, (note that includes overhead, profit, etc and is not the what the installers are paid), and allowing a day and a half for 2 guys to install it, which I think is generous, that would be $2400, not $4000.
When you take your car in for service to a dealer around here, it's generally right around $100 an hour for labor. Given the job and skill set, and comparing it to an auto dealer rate, I don't think factoring in $100 an hour per man labor rate is unreasonable. And I would think that an HVAC contractor is probably getting a better price on the eqpt than I can. Maybe I'.m missing something here, but I don't know what it is.

The contractors here, like most, are willing to negotiate.

So, a legitimate company won't negotiate? Seems rather odd given the state of the economy. With new construction in the tank, I'm really surprised that these guys aren't negotiating even more.
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wrote:

I realize that. And I was never counting installers salaries at all. What I was factoring in was a reasonable labor rate charged to me. The installers are obviously getting a lot less than that. Around here, you go to the major auto dealers for service and they are charging the customer around $100/hr labor rate. That includes the wages, overhead, profit, etc sufficient to run the business.
--------------------------------------
A certified Master HVAC Tech is not an auto mechanic, A certified Master Tech is a highly skilled, and highly trained specialist. Personally I do 5 - 7 semester hours every year in continuing educations and training just to keep up with the new technologies, and the latest advancements. Yes I am a certified Master Tech, and my labor rate has not been down to $100/hr in many years. Bubba in a pick-up truck with a refrigerant jug and ticket book as a rule doesn't have that kind of training, education or experience, nor does "Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob" that does it on the side.

3150 sq ft. And we have 90+ deg with high humidity too. Not as many days as you, I'm sure, but I still need the capacity for those days, no?
------------------------------------------------
It depends on a whole lot of factors.... first you need a complete room-by-room Manual J heat load/loss calculation done. That will tell you exactly how many BTUs you need to heat and to cool your home, and if you even need a 5 ton A/C.

That's almost exactly what the lowest quote I have here for the Rheem system is. So, here's my issue. When I account for all the materials, I can buy them for about $4200. That's shipped here and me buying qty one. That leaves $4,000 to cover the labor of install. Allowing $100/hr for labor, (note that includes overhead, profit, etc and is not the what the installers are paid), and allowing a day and a half for 2 guys to install it, which I think is generous, that would be $2400, not $4000.
---------------------------------------------
Maybe you should give classes on how HVAC contractors can go broke in 6 months or less.
When you take your car in for service to a dealer around here, it's generally right around $100 an hour for labor. Given the job and skill set, and comparing it to an auto dealer rate, I don't think factoring in $100 an hour per man labor rate is unreasonable. And I would think that an HVAC contractor is probably getting a better price on the eqpt than I can. Maybe I'.m missing something here, but I don't know what it is.
----------------------------------------
What your missing is the business of running a business, as well as the simple fact that a Master HVAC Tech is not an auto mechanic, and the HVAC tech is bringing his "shop" to the customer in the form of a service truck.

The contractors here, like most, are willing to negotiate.
They are "negotiating" just for the work, and don't care if they make enough to pay the bills, salaries, or taxes.

So, a legitimate company won't negotiate? Seems rather odd given the state of the economy. With new construction in the tank, I'm really surprised that these guys aren't negotiating even more.
-----------------------------------------
I don't do new construction because I can make more money sitting in my recliner. I will not work at a loss. I would rather not work at all if I can't at least break even. As far as the economy, I have had a record year.
I fired a customer because he asked if I worked on the side.... I told him that I am the company owner, and that I am not going to STEAL from my own company, and I would fire any employee that did any HVAC work on the side.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Last time I looked, we were in a recession, and nobody's turning away business.

Did the quotes break-out the price for the hardware separately?

I would have thought you could buy all that for closer to $3500 easily.
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Furnaces with ECM motors generally have a larger blower wheel and housing so they can turn slower and move the required volume of air. Air volume and velocity is set up for specific amount of heat temperature rise in furnaces and 400cfm per ton for heat pumps and air conditioning. Also because the ECM motors are turning slower, there is a whole lot less blower noise, but the ductwork has to be correctly sized. If everything is right with the world, the system is correctly designed, sized, and installed, it should have minimal energy usage, be nearly silent, no drafts, and no more than 1F temp difference between any 2 rooms.
If you want to continue screwing with your furnace, have at it...... just as soon as you get done using the hand crank to start your car.
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On 12/13/2010 10:36 PM, Steve wrote:

Hey, I could hand crank my 1967 Renault 10 with the screw jack handle. :-)
TDD
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 02:09:13 -0600, The Daring Dufas

Switching power supplies are a replacement for many linear *series* (not shunt) regulators. Series regulators have the active device in series with the load. Shunt regulators have their regulating element in parallel (shunt) with the load.
Series Regulator (pass element) Shunt Regulator ____ | | ___ +-----+-| |-+-----+ +----+|_R_|-+--+------+ | |____| | | |/ | /+\ | .-. /+\ Zener - .-. (Vin) | | |Load (Vin) (Shunt) /A | |Load \-/ === | | \-/ | | | | GND '-' | | '-' | | | === | === | === GND | GND === GND == GND GND
(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)
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On 12/12/2010 10:35 AM, snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

I'm sorry, I should have written linear, I stand corrected. I've worked on enough of the darn things. It used to be everything had a linear regulator and heavy transformer but the power supplies were simple and reliable. The 78xx series regulators and LM317's make it so easy to put together a regulated supply for a project. I was working in TV shops back in the 70's when RCA, if I recall correctly, came out with a TV set that used the flyback transformer as a newfangled power supply for the whole set. The company rep had one of the new "all solid state" sets hooked to a variac transformer which he used to run the voltage up and down. We were all impressed by the fact that the set would show a clear but slightly shrunken picture when the power to the set was turned down to 80 volts AC. I knew then that things were know going to get very interesting in the field of consumer electronics. Most of the sets we were working on had hybrid circuitry using transistors and IC chips for low power and low voltage then tubes for the high voltage horizontal output stage. I remember when a horizontal output tube was under $5.00 and a horizontal output transistor was $25.00 or more. Gasoline was also 30 cents a gallon back then. Gosh darnit! I think I'm getting old. :-)
I just had a flashback to the good old Radio Shack 12 volt DC power supplies the company sold for powering up a car or CB radio out of a vehicle. The early units used a TO-3 power transistor and a zener diode as a voltage reference in the circuitry. The latter versions used the LM317 and 78xx series regulators. I get the same power now from a wall wort that feels so light for the power it will supply. Oh yea, some of those Radio Shack power supplies were unregulated. :-)
TDD
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