I totally agee with that. Probably isn't done because of issues with ducting to the outside. For my basement furnace it wold take a up window, not counting the ductwork and diverters. So we open the windows when it's cooler outside than in. But if there's no breeze you really need fans in the windows to make that work well.
--Vic
ECM motors are *NOT* stepper motors. If you had a half a clue, you would know this.
Its too bad you have your mind made up and can't be confused with the facts. If ignorance is bliss, you must be in a constant state of euphoria.
London area? You poor guys - Waterloo Region dodged the bullet this time!!!
You can say what you like. I heat my 1970's (1974?) 2 storey for $700 a year in Waterloo with natural gas.
Only use the AC on the really nasty hot/humid days. This last summer that was about 2 weeks
They are a heck of a lot more efficient than a crappy split cap induction motor!!
I'd say it depends on how much cooler the outside air is. And even then, you have the issue of humidity which is a major concern in many climates. Pulling humid air from outside that happens to be 5 deg cooler than the house inside wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. And here in the NYC area, the few days of the year you would do that, ie some Spring and early Fall days, it just isn't worth it comared to the addional ducting. Besides, I thought Home Guy was all about simplicity. At a minimum such a system would require actuators, more controls, etc. To do it right you'd have to measure outside temp, outside humidity, inside temp, inside humidity and then have a mircrocontroller decide what to do. Sounds exactly like the complexity that HG wants to rip out of a new high efficiency furnace.
If you want to go that route, a whole house fan to pull air in from outside is an option. But it too has the above problems and being in the upstairs ceiling/attic interface, you now have something difficult to seal and insulate perfectly for the entire winter. Meaning what you gain in a few days that you use it could be more than lost.
I have 57 years of service experience with conventional blower motors that cycle on and off with the furnace/AC and have not had one fail yet. So, I'd say using them only during heat or AC vs running them 24/7 is a non- issue in terms of longevity.
You don't need microcontrollers. Just go to the basement and pull a lever or crank on a chain fall (-: Where I live, and the house I live in, it makes sense to draw in outside air at night about 10-30 days a year, depending. My house is brick, with little or no insulation. Haven't torn off any drywall on the exterior walls, but I know from drilling the drywall is on furring, maybe 1", not 2x4's. Never picked up any fluff when drilling. Surprisingly, my gas bill isn't bad. But it can absorb a lot of heat during the days of high sun and the heat migrates in if the nights aren't sufficiently cool. Better to have the night air working on both sides. Adds up to 10-30 days a year, depending. The same was true of my last brick house. Besides, if it's not too humid, outside air is good.
--Vic
Sometimes durability and longevity trumps efficiency.
Even if electric heat (on a per-therm basis) is twice the cost of natural gas, that extra energy used by a PSC motor is beneficially used by my house in the winter, and my PSC fan is running only maybe 25 to
33% of the time, not 100% of the time. In the summer, when my fan is running more often, it's running at full speed - something that I would also ask an ECM motor to do, and for which the ECM motor does not have as much of an efficiency advantage over a PSC motor.So I'll pay the net $100 a year in additional energy cost and never have to worry about my PSC motor failing me for several decades - if ever.
Even after gov't rebates, forking out a minimum $2000 for a new furnace is going to take years to recover that, with the ECM motor delivering just $100 a year and the burners / heat-exchanger *maybe* giving me an additional $200 a year in savings. And by the time I've made those savings the furnace will be near the end of it's reliable life-span.
I have 57 years of service experience with conventional blower motors that cycle on and off with the furnace/AC and have not had one fail yet. So, I'd say using them only during heat or AC vs running them 24/7 is a non- issue in terms of longevity.
--------------------------------------------------- Running the blower on continuous for A/C here in the deep south will actually raise the indoor humidity, but during the winter I do ust the "circ" function on the system control to keep the temperature mor even between the 3 floors. The "circ" function brings on the blower for 15 - 20 minutes an hour, just to circulate the air in the house.
So your saying that the "reliable life span" of the new furnaces is only 6 -
7 years?? This may be true when installed by John Q Homeowner, or the lowest bidder, however when correctly installed, properly adjusted, and with correctly sized ductwork, the normal lifespan is 20 - 23 years.You still cannot buy a new furnace today that *DOESN"T* have electronics controling it. Furnaces with PSC motors are still available, but only in the cheapest, lowest efficiency, "builder grade" models.
Maybe thats why your so against the new furnaces... your got the cheapest POS furnace you could find, you got what you paid for, and now your not happy with it.
Some systems for commercial buildings do use all outside air when economical. They need, if I remember right, 10% outside air when occupied in any case. Makes it more practical to go to 100%. Duct control is with "damper motors".
They don't just use outside temperature. They likely use an "enthalpy" controller, which combines temperature and humidity. If you don't take in air with humidity that is too high you don't have to worry about inside humidity, and control on temperature. One I remember had a temperature "set point" control in the supply air duct, that was a potentiometer output, which connected to the damper motor that controlled the amount of outside air that came in.
I've rented old buildings in the past that had an interesting hollow tile like building block construction for the walls. The material looks like the red roof tiles and with no heat in the warehouse area, the temperature never got into the low 30° range, nothing ever froze. I don't know what the material is but it seems like the designers knew what they were doing around the turn of the last century. :-)
TDD
Up here in Central Ontario when it is hot enough that you would want to draw in the outside air, the humidity is way too high to make it an acceptable alternative most days.
>
What kind of motor do you think is in virtually every electric or hybrid vehicle, and the majority of electric cycles??? ECMs are a lot less trouble prone than brushed DC motors. ONE moving part, no open commutation, no wear, no sparks, no brushes.
Still has enough of an advantage that I wouls choose the ECM over the PCM even if I did not choose to run the fan on low constantly.
Hey, it's your choice. I feel I made an informed choice, and I'm more than happy with the choice I made. You want to run with 1930's technology, that's fine with me. I won't twist your arm. But I also will not agree that the old stuff is always better
That's fine as long as your old furnace lasts. I wouldn't go out and spend $2000 (or more) for a new furnace just to get an ECM fan. But I sure wouldn't cheap out and buy a furnace with a PSC fan motor when the time comes to change the furnace
You keep omitting the most important reason for getting one, comfort. It will in low speed remove near 50% more moisture. You can at low speed run it to dehumidify with out cooling much. Great on those 70f days when its 75 inside and real humid. it can be run by Humidistat, just what alot of areas near water need often. Or to even out heat or Ac in a poorly ducted house. You dont like them so dont buy one.
Steve full-quoted:
What-ever they are, they're not going to last as long as the ones being made 30 and 40 years ago - many of which are still functional even if they've been replaced by new garbage.
Don't give me that "correctly installed" crap.
A furnace is a box where you connect wires and ducting and turn the friggin thing on. It's a glorified barbeque.
Any new furnace that can't be plugged into any existing house's ductwork and work correctly is a piece of shit.
As bad as the existing ductwork is or can be, you shouldn't have to tear it down and re-do it just to satisfy the hyper-sensitive requirements of a new furnace or it's delicate, wimpy ECM blower motor.
Pathetic.
If you mean electronics *inside* it, it's that very fact that I'm bitching about. Just because you can't buy one that doesn't have a frakken motherboard in it doesn't mean you can't bitch and complain how unnecessary it is to have it.
My furnace is 36 years old and is original to the house when it was built in 1976 which I bought 11 years ago. I have no idea where this furnace ranked in the marketplace at the time, but obviously they made quality stuff back then, before the industry went into the toilet in the last 10 - 20 years.
I'm very happy with it, and if I ever have to replace it, I'm going to modify any new furnace I get by swapping it's ECM motor for a PSC one, and remove the electronic ignition and replace it with a standing pilot, and rip all the electronic flame and other sensors out of it, along with the frakkin motherboard.
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca followed incorrect usenet style by full-quoting:
Down here in south-western ontario that is not usually the case.
Gee, I wonder what that liquid is that runs out of a pipe coming from my A frame above my furnace and into the floor drain beside my furnace. ?
Ever see a dehumidifier that doesn't get enough air-flow? See how much frost accumulates on it? See how that frost doesn't melt and turn into flowing water until you turn the unit off?
An evaporator coil that doesn't get cold enough to sweat when your blower fan is running full speed means that you're AC unit is too small capacity or has lost freon.
And you don't want it to get so cold that you start a frost build-up either.
"ON THE DAYS WHEN YOU REALLY NEED IT"
You better start following the furnace guys around and stockpile useable "old school" furnaces - you'll have a hell of a time modifying the new ones to take the old parts!!
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