New drainage laterals, bad water main pipe discovered

[Dan_Musicant]

I got 3 bids for replacing my old broken clay 4" (?) drainage lateral, and I went with the first bid. They did the snake camera thing and didn't charge me and their bid was much lower than the other two ($4,200 vs. over $6000 for the other two).

Today, they arrived to do the work. They said they'd do the trenchless replacement tomorrow and dug the holes today (7 holes in all, I believe). They had to use a jackhammer in several places to remove concrete.

They roused me from inside the house several times for one reason or another, but one time it was to show me that the old galvanized water main pipe had a major leak (it was spraying water pretty fast). They said (I think!) that it was 1/2" pipe! They said I must have had elevated water bills and I said my water usage had actually been very small (less than $5/month before all the water treatment and sewage charges, etc. etc.). They then said it had been a slow leak but the disturbance they'd made had increased it. They told one of the guys to run and shut off the main.

I'd presumed that the guy who'd worked up my bid when he came around later in the day would discuss fixing this or replacing it, since it's a pretty major thing, but he didn't mention it. Still, I assumed he had some ideas concerning this, and I'd hear about it later. I had other fish to fry with him because I have an upstairs tub drain that's clogged (all my efforts and those of another guy have failed), and there's the matter of wetness under my downstairs bathroom. He said since I was doing a $4000 job with them, he'd send a guy out for free who would try to snake out the tub drain. If that didn't work, there would be charges to do whatever is necessary if I agreed to the work. That might (worst case) involve replacing the tub drain, which goes through the walls of the first and second story (rather involved!).

The wetness under the downstairs bathroom he said they'd know more about later in the day.

So, the bidder/foreman leaves and his workers put a temporary clamp on the pipe that slows the leak to the point where they can turn on the water main again. Then one guy takes me aside (a latino guy) and tells me he can replace the water main pipe in his spare time ("Saturday") and will charge me a good price - $3000. He says to sound out the foreman what he would charge and not tell him about our side thing and then decide if I want him to do it. A little later he rouses me and says he has a friend who will do it cheaper - $2000 or $1800 depending on the length of the pipe, evidently. They tell me it's around 80 to 90 feet. The house is almost 100 years old and the meter is at the sidewalk and the only shutoff is right at the meter. He has me talk right to his latino "friend" on his cell phone. They inform me afterward that this guy is one of their foremen and quite experienced. I was told by one of the women in their office that their crews (13 guys in all) have all been together at least 6 years.

This guy proposes to use either 3/4" or 1" copper pipe, probably 1" and he said he already has the pipe. They all encourage me to go ahead and see what the company would charge for replacing the water main pipe and then decide if I want this guy to do it instead of the company.

I'm unclear where they are with the wetness under the downstairs bathroom (their English is pretty fractured) -- they found bamboo roots thickly around where the galvanized drains meet the clay lateral pipes.

I'm wondering a number of things. Firstly, if this is going to be outside the law -- IOW, is a permit required to replace the water main pipe and if so, are they going to comply with the permit process. Indeed, my contract with the plumbing company to replace my sewer lateral ("approximately 90 feet") says that their bid doesn't include permit fees, and I have no information from anyone concerning permits, if they have pulled them and what the fees are going to be.

I called mid-afternoon and asked to talk to the foreman/bidder and was told he would call me back probably in a minute or two. He didn't call me. So, I have nothing to compare bids with... yet, and won't at least until the crew comes to complete the drainage repairs tomorrow.

I am thinking maybe I should get some more bids, not just this plumbing company and one of it's foremen working on his own (although they told me that 2 of the 3 on the crew today would help this guy). I figure I can say "give me a phone number and I'll call you if I decide to have you do it." However, I'm kind of worried about the present water leak. I already have a bunch of sink holes and a seriously depressed section of driveway out there from the bad drainage system, and possibly also due to that break in the water main (and maybe other breaks). So, I figure whatever I do, I should do it quick.

Truly, this is only the second time I have ever dealt with home repair contractors, and I'm less than confident. I'm almost in my mid-60's, but am in pretty good shape, so doing my own repair work isn't out of the question here. However, I don't know how long I can live without running water!! I guess maybe I should field a number of bids.

Is copper best or should I consider plastic? If copper, L or is K OK?

1"?

Thanks for sage and considered advice!

Dan

[Speedy Jim]

Running the new water service would almost certainly require a permit. And authorization from the utility.

But at this point in the game.........

If you were even able to get the permit, the inspector would see the recent sewer work and have a fit.

I don't have a good answer for that unless the guys you talked to can simply go ahead and do it.

Only Type K copper is used where copper is used for service lines.

Be sure to see that electrical bonding jumpers are installed around the meter and inside the house.

If you do go with plastic, you will have additional grounding problems to solve. No biggie but must be considered.

Good luck.

Jim

[Dan_Musicant]

: Running the new water service would almost certainly require :a permit. And authorization from the utility. : : But at this point in the game......... : : If you were even able to get the permit, the inspector :would see the recent sewer work and have a fit. : : I don't have a good answer for that unless the guys you talked :to can simply go ahead and do it. : : Only Type K copper is used where copper is used for service lines. : : Be sure to see that electrical bonding jumpers are installed :around the meter and inside the house. : : If you do go with plastic, you will have additional grounding :problems to solve. No biggie but must be considered. : :Good luck. : :Jim

Thanks. Well, I don't really know if these guys have gone into a permit process for my drainage. They are a very old established plumbing and heating company, and they come recommended, so I just assumed that they have me covered there. The contract said that their bid did not include costs of permits. That didn't mean they weren't going to add the cost of permits. I should have asked them about permits, but didn't. Isn't it standard for a contractor to do that? I'm going to ask them first thing in the morning about that. If it was on me to get the permit, they should have told me so, right? Anyway, it seems to me that at THIS point it's not too late to have an inspection and be permitted. Everything is open and visible, they've done no work. The plastic pipe is out there ready for installation.

I assume you are referring to electrical bonding jumpers in regards to copper water main installation. Where I am, I don't think they use water pipes for grounds. However, you may be speaking of them in terms of preventing electrolysis induced metal decay. So I'll talk to whoever does the water main replacement about that if they use copper.

My thinking now is to solicit a few bids. Weather is going to be OK the next week and things are slow here for contractors because it's THAT time of year. It might help me get some low bids, I'm told by a contractor friend of mine.

If water pipes aren't used for grounds here I presume that using plastic isn't problematical from that aspect.

Dan

PS If the inspector has a fit, I think I have a good case for innosence. It really never occured to me that I'd screwed up there. Anyway, I'm going to try to make sure I'm OK with that. I'm sure this plumbing company is fully aware that in my town they now require certification for the drainage to put a house on the market. Those ducks have to be in order.

[buffalobill]

[Dan_Musicant]

:my 60 ft water line to the main was one inch copper for $5,000. and :worth every penny. i should have let them pave the 2 included concrete :in the driveway, my wife grumbles regularly. i thought i would let :things settle and pave the driveway a year later. oops. :i didn't consider replacing the old sewer line because of the rocky :layout. :have company #1 owner and your town inspector agree with you on all :your work. even with a written contract the homeowner pays for the :permits. :[or else what would your recourse be if the water line freezes next :year?] :your wetness and old broken water line are both your problems, fix :them. :then read up on building science at: :

Thanks. Where I live (Berkeley, CA) it's really a practical impossibility for my water main to freeze. On the rarest occasions an exposed water line might freeze. In 1990 we had a low of 27 degrees overnight, and that was the coldest it's been in probably well over 30 years.

Thanks for the comments. I'll check out that site. I've been there before but only looked over foundation issues.

Dan

[Wayne Whitney]

My understanding on permits: the homeowner has the ultimate responsibility to see that permits are taken out. Now the contractor has responsibility too, but the homeowner's responsibility is greater. You should read the contract language to mean "we aren't going to deal with permits." If you had a permit, you'd know it, since part of the permit process is positing a copy in your window.

BTW, the Berkeley permit office is closed until Tuesday, January 2nd.

Right, from the point of view of pulling a permit, nobody comes to the site until the first inspection, so if you haven't covered up any work that needs to be inspected, there's no issue.

Water service pipes are not relied on as the primary ground, because the water service can be plastic. But if the water pipes are metal then they do provide a good ground. So I encourage you to go with a copper service lateral, it will be the best ground you have until you replace the foundation and have a Ufer ground.

BTW, I'm surprised at how high the quotes are for replacing the service lateral are, although I've never bid the work. 60 ft of 1" Type K soft copper can be had locally for $260 + tax. Beyond that it's a matter of trenching between the meter and the house shut off valve, laying the pipe on a bed of sand and making two connections. I guess the difficult parts would be getting through the foundation and unrolling the pipe to be nice and straight.

Good luck.

Cheers, Wayne

[Dan_Musicant]

:On 2006-12-28, Dan_Musicant wrote: : :> Thanks. Well, I don't really know if these guys have gone into a :> permit process for my drainage. They are a very old established :> plumbing and heating company, and they come recommended, so I just :> assumed that they have me covered there. The contract said that :> their bid did not include costs of permits. : :My understanding on permits: the homeowner has the ultimate :responsibility to see that permits are taken out. Now the contractor :has responsibility too, but the homeowner's responsibility is greater. :You should read the contract language to mean "we aren't going to deal :with permits." If you had a permit, you'd know it, since part of the :permit process is positing a copy in your window.

Thanks, Wayne. I've been looking for just that information and not found it. My George Nash book "Renovating Old Houses" has no entry in the index for "permit" and skimming the book I see no real mention!

When I had my roof replaced a year ago I don't believe there was ANY indication of a permit until the inspector showed up when it was virtually done if not actually done. He signed off on it and that was it. The roofing company had evidently filed for the permit and payed the fee (I certainly didn't). So, this being my second contract ever I simply assumed (maybe foolishly!) that it was a similar if not same circumstance and that the plumbing company was taking care of it. I'm about to call them and ask them about it. In addition, I'll ask to talk to the bidder/foreman again about the broken water pipe. A person I talked to at East Bay MUD this morning told me I can assume these guys actually broke the pipe! Maybe the company will give me a decent price to replace it. That's my hope. Meantime, I suppose I should think about or actually call some other plumbers in the region and get some bids. EBMUD tells me I have a 5/8" line leading up to my meter at the sidewalk. There is no shutoff valve after the one that's adjacent to said meter!

I don't know about that potential problem of running pipe through the foundation into the house. I presume that in replacing the water main pipe they can add a shutoff. : :BTW, the Berkeley permit office is closed until Tuesday, January 2nd.

That's a potential problem. Yes, everything is open and emminently inspectable at the moment, but the crew is due back in a matter of minutes to finish the sewer lateral trenchless installation and it will all be closed up again including replacing the concrete where they jack hammered it out yesterday.

: :> Anyway, it seems to me that at THIS point it's not too late to have :> an inspection and be permitted. Everything is open and visible, :> they've done no work. The plastic pipe is out there ready for :> installation. : :Right, from the point of view of pulling a permit, nobody comes to the :site until the first inspection, so if you haven't covered up any work :that needs to be inspected, there's no issue.

It may not be practical to wait until after Jan. 2 for an inspection. Maybe the plumbing company wouldn't mind, I don't know. No rain is expected until almost New Years, but I wouldn't want to bet about after that. Maybe the prospect of rain isn't serious, I don't know. : :> I assume you are referring to electrical bonding jumpers in regards :> to copper water main installation. Where I am, I don't think they :> use water pipes for grounds. : :Water service pipes are not relied on as the primary ground, because :the water service can be plastic. But if the water pipes are metal :then they do provide a good ground. So I encourage you to go with a :copper service lateral, it will be the best ground you have until you :replace the foundation and have a Ufer ground.

I had George Walton come over again a couple of weeks ago and he told me he thought that unless I plan to live here a LONG time, he thinks it's impractical for me to completely fix up the house. He said he would charge ~$130,000 for just the foundation and residing work (which I suppose would include rebuilding the porch). He said it all could add up to $500,000 and what could I then get for the house? $700,000? By this reckoning I would have more money in my pocket if I just sold the house now (more or less)!

I do have a bid from Sept. 2005 to do the siding and foundation for $64,000, so I'll contemplate that, but even so I think George's imprecations are probably sensible. : :BTW, I'm surprised at how high the quotes are for replacing the :service lateral are, although I've never bid the work. 60 ft of 1" :Type K soft copper can be had locally for $260 + tax. Beyond that :it's a matter of trenching between the meter and the house shut off :valve, laying the pipe on a bed of sand and making two connections. I :guess the difficult parts would be getting through the foundation and :unrolling the pipe to be nice and straight.

I figured about the same for the cost of the copper piping. I'm afraid to use these fly-by-night plumbers by virtue of licensing, insurance and bonding issues. And, I assume I can't get references from them. I'd only be relying on their assurances. Those assurances sound reasonable, but if there are any difficulties they won't count for anything.

:Good luck.

Thanks!

:Cheers, Wayne :

Thanks and HNY!

[Dan_Musicant]

:BTW, the Berkeley permit office is closed until Tuesday, January 2nd.

I just called the bidder/foreman of the plumbing company and he said they did pull the permit. That's a relief.

So, Berkeley's inspector will come after they are done with the work and inspect. Funny, because at that point what the devil will the man see?

Anyway, he acknowledges that they MAY have broken it. Well, he didn't deny it when I said that... instead he said that they may have worsened an already existing leak. I'd conceded that the existing water main was undoubtedly in a quite fragile state. He said they are sending over one of their plumbers today to check out the situation and I will get a bid then to replace the water main line. The current one runs under one of the driveway slabs, so I think the replacement line would be just outside that slab and therefore 1' closer to the house itself. That seemed to be the thinking of the workers yesterday. Hopefully, that's acceptable in terms of code requirements. I'll ask the guy this morning.

If they quote me anything over $2000 (or even $1500) I'll have to at least consider getting competing bids.

Dan

[Wayne Whitney]

Tell them that replacing the service lateral with 1" copper K is about a $1000 job, and that since they are at least partially responsible you'd like them to do the job for half that, $500. If they squawk, offer to add a $100 for installing a house shut off where the new service connects to the existing house plumbing. If the house plumbing is galvanized, make sure a 6" long brass nipple is used to connect the new copper to the old galvanized.

Cheers, Wayne

[Dan_Musicant]

:On 2006-12-28, Dan_Musicant wrote: : :> Anyway, he acknowledges that they MAY have broken it. Well, he didn't :> deny it when I said that... instead he said that they may have worsened :> an already existing leak. I'd conceded that the existing water main was :> undoubtedly in a quite fragile state. : :Tell them that replacing the service lateral with 1" copper K is about :a $1000 job, and that since they are at least partially responsible :you'd like them to do the job for half that, $500. If they squawk, :offer to add a $100 for installing a house shut off where the new :service connects to the existing house plumbing. If the house :plumbing is galvanized, make sure a 6" long brass nipple is used to :connect the new copper to the old galvanized. : :Cheers, Wayne

Thanks. Those negotiating tips may help. Their estimator hasn't shown up yet, so that issue is in limbo. One of the guys lobbied me again to use his man, who I'm told is a foreman for them, and that he would start working at 4:00 this afternoon and work until 7:00 and finish tomorrow. I was, of course, noncommital. He knows I'm going to check out the offer from the company first at the very least. Meantime, the pipe is leaking around (estimate here) 1/2 cup/minute, possibly more. They had broken the sewer line adjacent to the break so that the escaping water would mostly flow into the sewer system. However, they've finished pulling the new sewer lateral (trenchless method), so none of the leak is reaching the sewers now. They are going to connect the pulled line to the house drains this afternoon.

Dan

[Dan_Musicant]

:On 2006-12-28, Dan_Musicant wrote: : :> Anyway, he acknowledges that they MAY have broken it. Well, he didn't :> deny it when I said that... instead he said that they may have worsened :> an already existing leak. I'd conceded that the existing water main was :> undoubtedly in a quite fragile state. : :Tell them that replacing the service lateral with 1" copper K is about :a $1000 job, and that since they are at least partially responsible :you'd like them to do the job for half that, $500. If they squawk, :offer to add a $100 for installing a house shut off where the new :service connects to the existing house plumbing. If the house :plumbing is galvanized, make sure a 6" long brass nipple is used to :connect the new copper to the old galvanized. : :Cheers, Wayne

The estimator wouldn't hear of them having responsibility for the pipe breaking, it being so old. He said they could do it for $2500 and I bargained them down to $2300. He said I could try to get better bids but he told me it is impossible. I accepted.

His idea is to run a new 3/4" copper L line under the sidewalk after going laterally to escape most of the affects of the roots of the large tree which is right next to the meter. Then, under the sidewalk, through the lawn (trench), and then UNDER the house (running 3/4" M copper at this point) by virtue of going up and into a vent. I didn't like the vent idea and asked if he could make a hole or go under the porch foundation and he didn't like that, saying an earthquake could break my water main in that case.

He also wants to put my outside front hose in front instead of at the side like it is now. I don't like that either.

One of the crew says that they would trench on the side of the house instead of going under, and I do like that. It's more work, but you wouldn't see the water pipe entering the house from the front and the hose spigot would be on the side. Also, they would beat the company's price by $400-500, hopefully.

So, I'll cancel the contract I just signed (I believe I have 72 hours to do that, however he said they'd start tomorrow, so I'll call today) and I'll call the guy they tell me will foreman the crew who does it the way I like it. Well, I guess that's the plan.

Dan

[Dan_Musicant]

I've made a deal to have my water main pipe replaced and the guy said he'd do either 3/4" or 1" copper, and pretty much left it up to me. He said he'd test the water pressure and if it was over 65 lb. he'd install

3/4", otherwise 1". But he said he'd do 1" in any case if I request it.

The run appears to be around 60' from the meter out front to the point in the house where the water currently enters. Interior piping is all

1/2" galvanized, and most of it pretty old (1914-ish house), and pretty corroded inside, although pressure seems good when no other water is being used. Typically, if you're taking a shower you better hope noone flushes a toilet!

The utility company tells me that the meter out front is fed by a 5/8" line from the main street-water-supply.

I have two bathrooms.

Should I ask for 1" copper for the water main line (presumably L, since it will run underground) or is this really overkill? TIA.

Dan

[Eric in North TX]

Never be afraid to overkill, better to have it and not need it than vice versa.

[Steve Barker LT]

1"

[John Ross]

And did the crewman tell you that what he proposes is illegal in California? Any work of this sort that is over $500 REQUIRES a licensed contractor. So you have a guy who is doing the work illegally, not insured, not bonded, certainly won't handle the permit if required, and you will not get the one year labor guarantee that is required for contractors in Calif. to give. OH yeah, for good measure, he is also stealing work from his boss!

Please see

and learn how everything you have done in hiring a contravor is wrong! I get a funny feeling this company is playing games with you. The fact that these workers seem to have a racket going offering to steal work from their boss and haven't been caught and fired yet, makes me suspicious the company is breaking this stuff on purpose and having these guys offer the low price as a con game.

-- John

[hallerb]

[Steve Barker LT]

??

[DK]

Unless it is a really smal house with no yard, then 1" is your friend.

[Dan_Musicant]

It's unanimous. 1" it will be. Thanks!

[Dan_Musicant]

:And did the crewman tell you that what he proposes is illegal in :California? Any work of this sort that is over $500 REQUIRES a licensed :contractor. So you have a guy who is doing the work illegally, not :insured, not bonded, certainly won't handle the permit if required, and :you will not get the one year labor guarantee that is required for :contractors in Calif. to give. OH yeah, for good measure, he is also :stealing work from his boss! : :Please see

and learn how everything you have done in :hiring a contravor is wrong! I get a funny feeling this company is :playing games with you. The fact that these workers seem to have a :racket going offering to steal work from their boss and haven't been :caught and fired yet, makes me suspicious the company is breaking this :stuff on purpose and having these guys offer the low price as a con :game. : :-- :John

Your points are all valid. You might be right about the con game, maybe not. There might have been a leak and their work made it bigger, like they claim. Or, they might have caused the leak. Really, the pipe looks to my inexperienced eye to be in bad shape. It's not a nice round pipe - it's very rusted on the outside. It's not hard to imagine this thing sprining a serious leak at the slightest provocation, judging by its appearance.

Even if it's not an outright con game, I think the company has some funny gaming going on - that is, the workers hustle the company's customers for side work and the company sort of turns the other way preferring to not notice. It's not really a good situation. I can still back out of it -- the guys are supposed to come over this afternoon after their regular day's work for the company and start my water main replacement job, finishing it tomorrow, and I'd pay them cash. It's kind of a husle, I know, but it's not horrible. Yes, he's probably not a licensed contractor. Maybe I should get other bids. In the mean time I have a cup a minute (guesstimate) leak.

Dan