Many people make assumptions. You see a fence, so the assumption is that it is on the property line. Later you want a sidewalk, so you frame it out to the assumed property line. Dumb or not, it happens every day. I wonder how many people think they own out to the curb at the street?
That assumes that said neighbor doesn't have a competing survey that puts the line somewhere else. And that the neighbor isn't just an idiot. And that the encroachment inconveniences someone in any way. If you don't have enough real problems in your life, then picking a fight with your neighbor over the
6" of weeds between your fence and the property line might make sense. Personally, I've got better things to worry about.First, if you don't actually know where the property line is, you would be foolish to argue over it, so the first step for you should be to locate the actual boundary. I would question the poster who said that the neighbor will have to have a survey, which will reveal any error. Actual surveys of urban property are almost never done for sales, and even if your neighbor did a survey, it would show incursions onto his property, not yours. You could, of course, split the cost of a survey.
My feeling is it would be unfair of you to know of a problem, and do nothing to resolve it, until after the property is sold and the current owner is far gone. Any subsequent owner would be reluctant to deal with you if you pulled a stunt like that, so I think that if there is a problem, you should do something before the sale to resolve it. That may be as simple as granting an easement, or leasing the encroached property. Something you and your neighbor could do without going to court. I would hire a reputable lawyer to document the resolution, however. Before I bought this house, the owner realized the neighbor's driveway encroached, so he and the neighbor agreed to an easement; unfortunately, the half witted lawyer they went to confused thirteen inches and thirty inches, so when a subsequent neighbor wanted to widen his driveway, I had to go to court to convince them that there was an error in the easement, and I shouldn't have to move my house.
Since the fence is owned by both of you, the responsibility for/living with its misplacement is pretty much shared. I find it hard to believe the whole fence line would be 6" inside your property though.
If a survey proves you right, and you are still concerned about it - I would suggest (at least where I'm from) you'd be the one ripping up the 6" of concrete (and returning it to your neighbour of course) - shortly before demarcating your lines better....
Don't bother with court - hire a surveyor, concrete saw & move that fence (tell the neighbour first) - much cheaper!
No, it doesn't. Before you start practicing law, gt an education.
There are multiple elements to a claim for adverse possession. To establish adverse possession, the one claiming the property must show that the possession was open, notorious, hostile adverse, and continuous
Open means that it occurs 24 hours a day in public. In other words, if you put a portable shed on my property each night between midnight and 2:00 am, your are sneaking on and sneaking off. Doesn't cut the mustard. Your use of my property has to be readily observable to me as the real owner.
Notorious parallels open. Your use of my property must be known to the public at large.
Hostile or adverse means that your use of my property must be without my permission of license. In your scenario, you have known of the use and generously permitted it. Your neighbor or his successor will always fail this prong of the adverse possession test. If you really want to ice the cake, cheaply, send your neighbor a certified mail letter, with return receipt, giving him written permission and a revocable, no fee license to use the 6 inch strip for his concrete. His use of the strip will never, within the requirements for adverse possession, be "hostile". Term your permission a revocable no fee license and you preserve your right, and your sucessor's to be an asshole and unilaterally demand th removal of the concrete from the strip. It sounds like being an asshole is important to you, so you do want to preserve your potential to be an asshole.
Continuous means that the use by your neighbor has to uinterrupted for a term of ears. At common law it was 20 year. That means 24/7/365 for
20 years. Your neighbor comes nowhere close.
See how you feel 20 years later, when you go to sell your house and the buyer discovers the neighbors sidewalk is on the property and refuses to close until you resolve it. Or when the title insurance company balks at issuing a policy at closing, because the survey now shows the neighbors sidewalk is on your property.
According to the OP, the fence is neither misplaced, nor shared. It's entirely inside his property line.
Where is it that you're from that a neighbor can pour concrete on your property and it's up to you to remove it and return it to the neigbor?
And more bad advice. The proper sequence is surveyor, then lawyer to understand your legal options. You MIGHT wind up in court, but the above process is far more likely to get you there.
My neighbor has built his driveway over a wedge of my property 18 inches at the base and 40 feet long. He built his house before mine and that was the only way he could build his driveway to let his car through to the backyard garage. There is no other access. I don't have a problem with that as I have lots of land on my corner lot. Where I had intended to build my garage had curbside access. But in maximizing my garage lot and driveway I had to shift the layout such that the driveway was built over the municipal water shutoff valve to my house. No problem there with me either as I just had to put in an access hole where the valve was.
Its 25 years now and there has not been any problem from the City or through five changes of neighbors fo whom three were owner-buyers. That is a survey must have been done more than once and I wasn't in the picture. I don't want to open a can of worms as the saying goes. But should my son sell the house when I am gone will my son's and my good neighbor policy leave him with a problem from a buyer? Of course there will be full disclosure during negotiations. I'd just like to know what issues will be brought up beforehand without lawyers getting in the way of an amicable agreement.
If you have a 10,000 sq. ft. lot in an area zoned for single family 5000, that
6" could cost you the right to short plat the lot.Bob
And *IF* that's the case, it's worth picking a fight over.
Here's another idea: After the guy moves start walking around your fence every day on the OUTSIDE of your yard. After you;ve dones this for 10 years or so then YOU can claim adverse possesion for a foot or
2 of HIS property.
Did you know about it at the time? If you were OK with it, then you should have consuted an attorney and given the neighbor an easement. Actually, the neighbor is dumb or very inconsiderate to do this without getting an easement.
If you want to rectify it, consult an attorney. You very likely can just grant him an easement which makes the whole thing legal and avoids any questions with a future sale. If it were me, I would expect the neighbor to pay for any costs incurred, legal, survey etc. That is why the time to do this is BEFORE he's gone ahead and done it. After letting it go for years, who knows what the reaction will be or if he's willing to pay the costs.
Most lawyers offer a free consultation, so that would be an easy first step.
Here we go again...
Yes, if a fence is inside his property line, someone had to put it there, and it's in the wrong position (6" inside), creating a communal impression of an incorrect property line. Apparently not long enough has passed for it to be considered an accepted property line.
You don't seem to understand the court's (and the taxpayer's on their behalf) loathing to get involved in petty matters. This is a problem between two parties, who don't need to spend the city's funds on working out who's right, because the laws are easily available to anyone who is trained to look for them.
The doctrine of acquiescence appears not to be applicable here (not legal advice due to insufficient information, state variations + I'm not even in that country). This is (where I'm from) the only thing stopping the guy from removing the offending concrete.
There's several courses in law available in night school I'm told...
Go for it, Onya fella!
Not many, I sincerely hope, otherwise they'd get an unexpected course in concrete removal, and turf laying.
In the wrong place according to whom? If I put up a fence, I would do it exactly as the OP did, with it slightly inside my property line. I don't care about a "communal impression." I want a fence that I own and control. If you place it on the property line, in most cases it's a jointly owned fence that the property owners on each side are now jointly responsible for.
Oh, really? Do you pull your own teeth? Take out your appendix too? Someone who has a neighbor that poured a sidewalk 6" on there property and wants to know their options, needs a lawyer. Last time I checked that's exactly who's trained to look for laws, interpret them and figure out what course of action is available.
And what's your problem with someone who pays real estate taxes for years calling up a code official to ask about the municipality's regulations on where you can place a sidewalk, permits, etc? He's paying the guy's salary, isn't he?
Yeah, that's a good idea, go to law school instead of getting a free consultation with a lawyer or calling up the code official. You must have an interesting time getting through life.
"glenn P" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news.rivernet.com.au:
Generally,the city/county does the work,and sends the prop.owner a bill for it,Or they send a letter requiring removal (in
Finding the keyboard operational Patches Forever entered:
I recently talked to a lawyer friend about this topic. This is what I learned with the following caveats:
I wouldn't make an issue of this even if it were 6" by a mile. Just because of the aggravation of maintaning it. In my neighborhood everyone cuts their lawn up to the neighbors driveway ( one the one side) because it just makes the lawn look neater. We also shovel each others snow if needed. Telling your neighbor that you will take him to court if he doesn't cut the sidewalk back is just asking for trouble IMO. Everyone here ties their fence into their neighbors fence because it is cheaper and easier. According to my friend this may be considered as an "accepted practice" and be perfectly legal. Same as the fence issue. Since the realtor and the buyer have both looked at the property, it is their responsibility to bring the matter up. Since the walk encroaches on the property line, it's the buyers problem. You might want to tell the realtor just to be nice. Title insurance only checks to see if there is a lein on the property, not that the property bounderies are exact. If zoning laws have changed, they may or may not check them. You will only get a plat from the city for your lot when you buy. If you want a survey as a buyer, you pay for it. I seem to remember that the plat from the city has a notice that it may not be accurate and does not take the place of a survey. Good luck trying to find the survey stakes. Mine doen't exist. Finally, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to obtain property via adverse possesion if the property owner is paying the taxes. If the propery is not being cited for lack of maintenance, it's not necessarily eligible for adverse possesion even if you cut the grass. Just so you know, this conversation came about in regards to a railroad siding that is abandoned and will never be used behind my property. The conversation moved to my neighbors driveway, my driveway and the fences. Based on the conditions and the legal expenses, that 6" may be high on the lists of the most expensive real estate on the planet. Hope this helps Bob
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-- Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
Since you obviously have little idea what you are talking about, I won't bother arguing with you.
But basically, for anyone else reading this, if you put up a fence inside a property line, then you should be at least partly liable for any problems caused by this. The neighbour shouldn't have to employ a surveyor to determine where you think your boundary might be. As I said, (where I'm from) fences between properties are always jointly owned. Is what you're suggesting that each neighbour erect their own fence?
"Controlling" a fence...... Now I need to hit that plonker button - where is it!>?
Done!
Depends on where you are from. If you live in some housing development where everyone wants a fence, that makes sense. My neighbor two doors away has one and he paid for all of it. If my next door or rear neighbors want a fence, that is their prerogative and I'm not paying a penny because I don't want or need a fence. So far they have not either.
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