Need your advice on a good inside automotive tire patch

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On 12/13/2015 2:23 AM, Danny D. wrote:

I've got the music from Star Trek floating through my head. A five year mission, to seek out new wisdom, and understanding.
I also like to learn some about other trades, nice to be able to tell which guys and gals are doing it correctly.
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On 12/13/2015 04:34 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Unfortunately, sometimes it's too late to stop them :-( The used Japanese engine installer I HAD to go to was required to adjust the valves after nnn miles. I watched him do it and he did it wrong. He probably did other stuff wrong too, and the engine lasted only maybe 15K miles before it started blowing and burning oil.
The "expert" at Chick's Sporting Goods (now defunct, probably for good reason) used the wrong screwdriver to try to remove my ski binding, partially stripping out the screw he was working on. I asked if he was using the correct (torx, I think; it's been a while since I cared) screwdriver. <jerk slaps forehead> Fortunately Sport Chalet could solve the problem.
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The Real Bev wrote, on Sun, 13 Dec 2015 08:53:11 -0800:

I can't count how many times I've seen a repair person use the wrong tool on our bolts and nuts. Most use whatever is in their pocket at that very moment, whether or not it's the right tool.
I've seen PG&E people using linesman pliers to remove slotted bolts; I've seen 'em pry open boxes using screwdrivers. It cost them time to go back to the truck to get the right tool.
I've watched my tires mounted, and, I will say that based only on my experience, 0% of tires are mounted according to the proper methods (I'm not saying tires are falling off cars - but that they don't use the proper tools or methods - all of which they *know* but they don't care to follow).
For example, almost *never* when I look at car tires in the Costco parking lot with brand new tires, is the dot in the correct place.
Pretty much, almost never is a professional job done right, least of all garage door springs. But you have to *know* what to look for before you can notice that they almost always do the job wrong.
If you want it done right, then you have to do it yourself. I doubt tire repair is any different.
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On 12/13/2015 09:57 AM, Danny D. wrote:

I watched a 'pro' mount tube type tires on my bike without using a tube. They weren't spoked wheels so they might have held air for a while.
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On 12/13/2015 08:57 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Dot? Explain...

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Bev
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The Real Bev wrote, on Sun, 13 Dec 2015 21:05:30 -0800:

It's part of the match mounting process to ensure the least amount of imbalance at the time the tire is mounted on the rim.
Yokohama, for example, here's a verbatim quote from Yokohama: http://www.yokohamatire.com/tires-101/advanced-information/match-mounting "To facilitate proper balancing, Yokohama places red and yellow marks on the sidewalls of its tires to enable the best possible match-mounting of the tire/wheel assembly. There are two methods of match-mounting Yokohama tires to wheel assemblies using these red or yellow marks: - Uniformity (red mark) - Weight (yellow mark)"
When I mounted my tires myself, I used the red-dot method (which always takes precedence over the yellow-dot for the brand of my tires: https://www.ehow.com/how_7783097_mount-tires-rims-red-dot.html
Here's a decent description: http://www.sumitomotire.com/assets/products/catalogs/Balance%20DOTS.pdf The Balance Marks will be indicated as follows: Yellow - Within 3 inches to either side of the YELLOW circle is the LIGHT spot of the tire. Each tire is confirmed at the factory for radial balance, and marked at this point. For most mounting practices, Sumitomo suggests mounting this YELLOW circle near the valve stem, and use of industry recommended procedures for safe tire mounting. Red – A RED circle denotes a measurement of high-speed run out (measurement called HARMONIC). If the wheel/rim is an OE spec rim, it is marked at the factory with a DIMPLE (in the rim/wheel heel). If this tire/rim assembly gives a vibration at high speed with the YELLOW circle at the valve stem and the bead is checked for proper seating, then the RED circle should be matched with the DIMPLE.
So, notice a few things: 1. It's "work" to figure out what the dots mean, and work is effort which the tire monkeys don't feel like doing.
2. In the end, they "compensate" for their lack of effort with more weight when they dynamically balance.
3. In "my" (limited) experience, proper match mounting to the wheels (mine are BBS rims), allows for very little weight to be needed, and almost perfect balance before you put a single weight on in the first place.
NOTE: I'm very well aware that lazy people say it doesn't matter whether you match mount or not; but notice those are the people, who, in general, don't *understand* this stuff, or, who just plop on weights not caring how many they add or where, just so long as their machine is happy.
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On Sun, 13 Dec 2015 21:05:30 -0800, The Real Bev

They are basically marks on tires which are supposed to indicate "balance points." A red dot represents radial runout, a yellow dot represents the "light" spot of the tire. You're supposed to mount the tire with the dots aligned with the wheel stem hole, or the "low spot" dimple - if present - on a steel wheel. If you have both red and yellow dots, ignore the yellow. This might give you a chance of finding the best initial balance point - if you're lucky. Depends of how accurately the wheel and tire were manufactured and tested in terms of "balance" and runout. But if you balance tires with a Hunter Road Force balancer, which is how I get my tires balanced, the dots end up at random locations. If I was bubble-balancing my own tires, I'd use them. My kid worked mounting tires at Just Tires for a couple years and when I mentioned the dots to him he responded with, "Oh yeah, I noticed the dots sometimes. Didn't know what they were for. Interesting" And some tire manufacturers don't mark their tires with balance points.
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Vic Smith wrote, on Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:08:30 -0600:

Everything Vic Smith said is right on the money.
I'm still confused about one thing though, which is that I've read *everything* on the net about these dots (those who know me can believe that, by now), and I remember seeing slightly different answers depending on which manufacturer makes the tires.
So, while Vic Smith is 100% correct, I'd always doublecheck with the actual manufacturer of the tire that I'm mounting (and, for the tires I most recently mounted myself, Vic's answer is spot on).
The purpose is to reduce the imbalance from the very beginning.

I'm sure Vic Smith knows what he's talking about, but, upon first inspection, I don't understand this statement because the tires go on the rims by the dots *before* the tires get balanced on the machine.
I guess what Vic Smith is saying is that a "proper" tire mounting job would be to mount the tire according to the match mounting marks on the rim and the dots on the tire, and *then* spin balance and *then* deflate the tire and slide the tire to get the best balance *before* adding a single ounce of weight.
Of course, this is a *perfect* procedure, but, I have *never* seen anyone do it on "my" tires when mine are dynamically balanced.
The tire monkey knows *how*; it's just work and, most customers don't know the difference.

Yup. I have only mounted and balanced 6 tires (5 of my own and one for a friend on a SUV). Mine are stock BMW alloy wheels, which have match-mounting marks and which were pretty well balanced when I match mounted the tires according to the dots. The static balance was pretty good with very little zinc weight being added.
The SUV steel rim was harder. First, I couldn't *find* the match mounting mark, and it took more weight (a lot more) than the BBS alloy wheels did.
The neighbor didn't complain about vibration, even though I warned her that she may feel vibration (it was a front tire besides).

Heh heh. This is why I call them tire monkeys (pardon my slur). I buy from TireRack and I have them shipped to my address so I can bring them to any tire-rack-recommended dealer.
First I brought them to Goodyear, and when I told them to match mount, they asked "me" where to put the dots! True story!
I had to look it up because, as I said, it can change based on what the manufacturer says.
The next time I replaced tires, for my wife's car, I went to a different shop where I brought the printout for match mounting with me. Again, they had to read the damn thing.
Most tire monkeys were *taught* this stuff, I'm sure (because it's basic tires101; but they don't give a hoot, and most of their customers don't know any better.
As always, if you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself.
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On Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:34:34 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Right. But that's the "ideal." It's called "matching" Even though I get my tires road force balanced, I was never around to watch the guy do it. I assume they just mounted the tire and balanced it on the machine. Think about it. You can save 1/2 ounce of weight by spinning the tire 90 degrees on the rim, or just use the 1/2 ounce. The average guy is just guy is just going to add the weight. Why remove the tire, take it to another machine, deflate it, etc? It's okay with me, since I'm not paying for "matching."

As long as there's no difference it doesn't matter to me.
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On 12/14/2015 07:56 AM, Vic Smith wrote:

You guys just made me go out and look :-( 4 Falken tires from America's Tire, fronts a year old, rears maybe 4 months. No dots, and the placement of the tire on the wheel seemed to be random. I saw only one small weight. That seems odd, unless they put them on the inside of the wheel too.
Apparently the thinking now is to put new tires on the rear instead of the front. This really seems WRONG.
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On 12/14/2015 10:54 AM, The Real Bev wrote:

Which is common.

"When replacing only two tires, the new ones go on the front.
The truth: Rear tires provide stability, and without stability, steering or braking on a wet or even damp surface might cause a spin. If you have new tires up front, they will easily disperse water while the half-worn rears will go surfing: The water will literally lift the worn rear tires off the road. If you're in a slight corner or on a crowned road, the car will spin out so fast you won't be able to say, "Oh, fudge!"
There is no "even if" to this one. Whether you own a front-, rear- or all-wheel-drive car, truck, or SUV, the tires with the most tread go on the rear." http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a3121/6-common-tire-myths-debunked-10031440/
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. wrote, on Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:18:05 -0600:

I have never owned a FWD vehicle but I don't know if the drive wheels matter for where to put your best wheels.
What "I" do is not only put the best "tires" on the front, but I put the best *wheels* on the front (i.e., the most round of the rims, as measured by spinning the rims on the balancer next to a stationary object to eyeball the out-of-roundness, which all rims have to some degree, especially the soft rims that BMW puts on their bimmers).
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On 12/14/2015 10:56 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Back in the dark ages new tires always went on the front. I thought that was because a blowout/flat would be more dangerous if on a front tire. I can see the logic in putting them on the rear, especially if one tends to only replace tires when the belts start to show through :-)
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The Real Bev wrote, on Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:54:31 -0800:

Not all brands of tires have the yellow and red dots, unfortunately.
And, each brand may have a different interpretation. And, many of the interpretations conflict with others.
Here is probably one of the better descriptions: http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/publications/ra_v13_i1/PDF/ra_v13i1%20ask%20doc.pdf
Such is the complexity of knowing and understanding how things work in the real world!
The point is that, if your tires *have* the dots, they'll *still* be mounted wrong, simply because the tire monkey doesn't care about properly mounting your tires (and, most likely, most customers wouldn't know a properly mounted tire from an improperly mounted tire).

The placement of the weights is a science in and onto itself. Mine, for example, go on the inside of my BMW OEM BBS alloy wheels, but the SUV with the steel rims I balanced had clip on weights which went on the edges of the rim (and they have various shapes of those things, which are diabolically similar in appearance, but which are actually different).
Then there's the lead waste problem in California ...
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Vic Smith wrote, on Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:56:13 -0600:

Exactly.
For them, the *time* it takes to correctly mount your tire is vastly more expensive than the weights.
By the way, I have match mounted my own tires to my BMW OEM rims and you do *not* need to dismount the tire to match mount it.
What you do is mount it, but, due to the nature of mounting at home with gobs of Liquid Palmolive as a lubricant, the tire slides a little.
But a new tire that has no air in it is relatively easy to slide on the rim. Of course, the bead has to be broken, which is a pain if you can't do that on the Hunter balancer that you're using to tell you where to slide the tire, so, maybe that's what you're intimating they need to do on the second machine.
Anyway, we are in violent agreement.
There is a "proper" way to mount a tire, yet, I will wager that just about 0% of passenger tires get mounted properly.
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On 12/13/2015 10:53 AM, The Real Bev wrote:

Some of the ski industry also uses PoziDrive. But agree someone in the business ought to know the various formats
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On 12/13/2015 09:20 AM, AMuzi wrote:

That's it, not torx. All ski bindings use pozidrive. I wonder if that's just to keep ordinary customers from fiddling with them. When bindings get too old no official ski repair person will touch them, and lists of acceptable-for-repair bindings come out each year. No idea about snowboard bindings. I waited weeks for this guy, the "ski expert" to come back from wherever he was. When I asked him about the screwdriver he immediately knew that he'd screwed (ha!) up, so that's at least one point in his favor.
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Vic Smith wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:52:02 -0600:

Exactly my point. This isn't the ladies' knitting group.
This is what we talk about.
In this case, we (at least "I") have learned *how* to perform a proper punctured tire repair.
Remember when everyone said we couldn't choose different sized garage door torsion springs and install them ourselves? Well, as you know, I've done about a dozen since then, and with the right supplier (Dan at DDM Doors!), it's *easy* and practical to replace our crappy 10K cycle torsion springs with 70K cycle springs, for less than the cost of a professional repair with the crappy springs. The only special tool needed is a steel bar, but, you must know what you're doing (because you can kill yourself).
This isn't any different a quest. I've already proven it is practical to mount and balance your own tires. I've done five of them (actually six, because I did an SUV tire also).
They balanced perfectly with a static balancer and with meticulous match mounting on the rim. Maybe I was lucky, or, maybe I was just meticulous, but, it's practical since it pays for itself in the very first job.
I'm just trying to find out if a proper home repair of a punctured tire is practical.
Hence, that's why I'm trying to source the three fluids at a home box store (two of the three fluids seem easily sourced).
Then I will try to source the tools, most importantly that carbide bit.
Does anyone know where we can get a carbide bit for the tires at the home box stores?
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clare wrote, on Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:17:09 -0500:

Ah. Butyl Rubber is what the inner tire rubber is made out of. Hydro treated heavy paraffin petroleum distillates? Hmmmm... that sounds like "tar".
Carbon black & di(benzothiazol-2-yl) disulphide sounds like the vulcanization process all by itself.
Zinc oxide? Hmmm... I wonder what that does? Butyl rubber resin? I guess that's the final "varnish" on the top.
If it's *that* complex, then that means we'll never find a suitable replacement in the box stores.

Like I said, this isn't the ladies' knitting newsgroup. We can *think* things through here.

I already know *exactly* how to do it right. I'm just thinking it further through, from the standpoint of a non professional, who will only be doing the job once every few years, so, essentially, all the fluids will be used only once.
They'll be dry before they ever get used again, so, that's why it's a good idea to second source the fluids, if it's possible.
It looks like two of the three fluids are easy to come by: 1. Pre-buff = Naptha is easy to find anywhere 2. Vulcanizing Cement = Easy to find anywhere 3. Innerliner sealer = this 'tar' may be harder to come by
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UPDATE:
Here is a *fantastic* set of resources, which, by the way, proves that snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca was right on the money when he said that the fluids were what they are!
Note that the tire repair procedure below is excellently detailed!
Web page: http://www.patchrubber.com/tire_repair/chemicals.html MSDS: http://www.patchrubber.com/tire_repair/msds.asp
Procedure: http://www.patchrubber.com/training/pass_puncture.pdf Catalog: http://www.patchrubber.com/training/patch_catalog.pdf
1. Pre-buffing Cleaner Fluid (Solvent) 100% Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated light CAS Number 64742-49-0, EC Number:265-151-9 http://www.patchrubber.com/tire_repair/16481-ce.html MSDS http://www.patchrubber.com/tire_repair/msds-download.asp?idY1
2. Fast Dry Self-Vulcanizing Cement 60-100% Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated light CAS:64742-49-0 30-45% Heptane CAS:142-82-5 0-30% 3-Methylhexane CAS:589-34-4 0-20% Methylcyclohexane CAS:108-87-2,EC:203-634-3 0-15% 2-methylhexane CAS:591-76-4 1-5% zinc dibutyl dithiocarbamate CAS:35884-05-0 0-5% 3-ethylpentane CAS:617-78-7 0-5% 2,3dimethylpentane CAS:565-59-3 4% Natural Rubber <0.05% toluene CAS:108-88-3 <0.001% ethylbenzene CAS:100-41-4 <0.001% benzene CAS:71-43-2 http://www.patchrubber.com/tire_repair/16450.html MSDS http://www.patchrubber.com/tire_repair/msds-download.asp?id 3 3. Inner tire liner sealer http://www.patchrubber.com/tire_repair/16170.html MSDS http://www.patchrubber.com/tire_repair/msds-download.asp?idg7 60-100% Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated light CAS:64742-49-0 7-13% Carbon black CAS:1333-86-4,EC:215-609-9 0.1-1% benzothiazole,2,2'-dithiobis- CAS:120-78-5,EC:204-424-9 0.1-1% stearic acid CAS:57-11-4,EC:200-313-4 0.1-1% zinc oxide CAS:1314-13-2,EC:200-222-5 <0.1% proprionic acid CAS:79-09-4,EC:201-176-3 <0.1% sulfur CAS:7704-39-4,EC231-722-6 Given this information, it seems that the first two fluids are easily sourced at any auto parts store or hardware box store; but that last inner tire liner sealer (tar) won't be found anywhere but at at tire-repair specialty outfit most likely.
NOTE: The pre-buff solvent is 100% naptha, and *not* MEK (methyl ethyl ketones), as someone had erroneously stated.
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