All gas ranges have had unvented ovens and
top burners for all time, and most people know enough
to have the air adjusted if there is much red or orange
or yellow flames.
With pure blue flame they are considered safe,
but it is assumed they are not used constantly.
Most of the unvented heaters are not very
large, usually less than 20,000 BTU/hour.
My vented heaters are 75,000 and 35,000
BTU/hour, and Cozy also sells them with propane
jets, but they are all vented.
Gas water heaters do kill people, but it
usually takes both a blocked vent and an incorrect
air setting to do that.
All gas appliances must have a way to
adjust the air induction, and if any red, yellow or
orange flame is seen, have somebody that knows
how adjust it.
But any over 20,000 BTU/hour should
probably be vented, especially in rooms where
My heater instructions state how much
of an opening is required for fresh air to enter.
Gas ranges were vented up till around 1920-1930. And you absolutely
can not tell the unit is running properly by a blue flame. My CO
detector disagrees with that statement.
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:09:50 -0500, Joe Fischer
Tell that to the 50 million gas range users and the
gas company service men that check them anytime the
gas has been shut off and they won't turn the meter on
until they can get in the house and check all the appliances.
But I turned the supply valve off to my 1959 Magic
Chef, I simply don't want pilots on in an unvented stove,
in fact I don't need a stove as long as the microwave works.
800 ppm - (air-free) Level of CO allowed inside oven flues by an
American gas association (now ANSI) standard, # Z21.1. [this level is
unchanged since 1921 when oven flues were still vented outdoors like
woodstoves, instead of directly into the kitchen as they have since
And for a reference point, 400 ppm - Level of CO (air-free) allowed
inside furnace flues by an American gas association (now ANSI)
So, it's permissible by ANSI standards for your properly adjusted
kitchen stove to vent TWICE the level of CO INTO your home that your
furnace can vent up the flue.
You think that's okay?
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:58:54 -0500, Joe Fischer
The creation of random numbers is too
important to be left to chance.
How can you relate "permissible levels"
with "properly adjusted"?
I don't think it is ok for any CO to be
in closed living space, and all I mentioned
is that there are millions of stove top burners
and unvented ovens, if they are not safe,
it is something that is not widely known.
While gas company men may not
check for CO levels, they will not turn a
meter on without making sure there are
no burners on that are not controlled
by safety valves.
The gas company turned my meter
off last spring to fix a leak in the street, and
I wasn't home when they wanted to turn it
back on, and I told them to wait till fall,
and when I called, the man came out and
lit the space heater pilot in the living room,
and wouldn't take my word that I had the
supply valve to the gas range turned off,
he checked top see for himself before
turning the meter on, and wouldn't leave
until I showed him the vent pipe for the
space heater in my room that is turned
off, but available if the grid goes down
to replace my electric heat.
In about 1975, somehow the main
gas valve for the entire city of Somerset,
Pennsylvania was turned off, and it could
not be turned back on until every one of
the 5,000 or so meters were turned off,
and the meters then only turned back
on as men from utilities from several
states went house to house lighting pilots,
it took almost a week, luckily the temperature
was in the 30s and 40s F.
Well, golly, that's just dandy of the gas company to verify you don't
have gas dumping into your home after they shut the main off. We do
the same. What's that have to do with CO in homes?
I base my statements on personally testing appliances and homes for CO
On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:40:38 -0500, Joe Fischer
You're simply wrong on this. CO is a normal product of the combustion
of any fossil fuel. The normal levels are quite low for equipment
that's running properly.
Is your CO detector UL listed? If so, it CAN NOT display any notice
of CO until it's at 70ppm for at least 4 hours. OSHA 8 hour weighted
average is only 50ppm. EPA recommends CO in residences be no more
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:31:17 -0500, Steve Spence
Yeah I forgot... EVERYONE keeps their units in tip top shape!
And if these PROPANE heaters are so well made, burn efficiently, don't give
off deadly CO fumes... EVERYBODY would be going to them.
Guess what... that's not happening SHERLOCK!
Ever come across a furnace or boiler that pegs your CO meter?
I have... now guess what would have happened if they were VENTLESS.
OH MY GAWD..... lets say your safe because your meter is UL approved!
You just showed your stupidity with this post.
Would you rather have a meter that sounds an alarm at 9 PPM or 70 PPM.
I think you have brain damage from inhaling to many Carbon Monoxide
I don't have time for rude little posers like you. I've been running and
fixing propane equipment for years. I take precautions, but I'm not
scared of it like you are. It's very common equipment among us
off-gridders, with years of worry free performance. If you value scott's
opinion so much, why did you mark his post as being stupid? Whatever,
you aren't worth the trouble. bbye now.
Been working on propane heaters for many years here too... big deal.
You do know that years of experience doesn't qualify as QUALITY service?
Did I say I was AFRAID of them? No
Did I say they produce CO? Yes
Did I say that using an UNVENTED heater in a home is stupid? Yes
What don't you understand?
We often come across units producing lethal levels of CO. The last
one was last week. 2000ppm, not air free. Couldn't get the meter out
of the vent quick enough. We replaced the unit.
I'll stand by my statement that normal levels are quite low for
properly operating equipment. The sky's the limit otherwise.
Say what? Ken, did you even read what I posted? If so, you'll note
that I said if it's UL approved it CAN'T even display levels below
Slow down there, buddy.
It's all good. :-)
I just didn't want people to think those "piece of shit" CO detectors they
purchase in chain stores are going to save their life.
It's sad that the good ones are not the ones in everyones home.
HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.