NEC 2005 Handbook

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Pop wrote:

Because Nehmo is, IMO, an accomplished thief and assumes others are as well.
Matt
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5th Circuit Court ruled a couple of years ago that any standard incorporated into local ordinances must be available free of charge. Basically what the court said was that laws cannot be copyrighted. So if the NEC is accepted by a municapility or state as part of their regulations, it must be provided free and the copyright is voided. I think that the suit was Veeck vs. I don't recall the defendant.
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Thomas Avery wrote:

Irrelevant.
Nehmo is offering the NEC *handbook*. The *handbook* is *NOT* the standard. It includes far more than just the NEC code.
Ed
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- ehsjr -

- Nehmo If you want to be technical, I just provided a hash of a pdf of the handbook, something which until now nobody has claimed a copyright to. But hereby do so now. I might as well. You have my permission to copy it.
The Veeck decisions http://www.gtwassociates.com/answers/veeck.htm are relevant because this discussion has turned to issue of publishing works that have been adopted by states as law.
There is a fundamental principle here: Someone under the command of a law should be able to freely access the law, so he or she can find out what the command is. You dont agree with that?
--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(



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Nehmo wrote:

What country are you claiming your copyright in?
I assume this thread has already made it to nfpa. most publishers and large companies scan the net for references to their work. I'm looking forward to how this turns out, there's a lot of stuff i'd like to have copies of, but can't afford.
At least i can still listen to "free" music on fm radio without the ire of the riaa. A professional group I used to have great respect for.
At some point we'll all be paying Encarta for anything produced, published, or performed that we read on the 'net.
-larry / dallas
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Nehmo wrote:

You just change things around to try to force fit a square peg into a round hole. Here are your words from 10/30 at 1:48 : "In any case, if you want a free copy of the Handbook, you now should know how to get it." Your intent is absolutely clear, and it is equally clear that it violates copyright.

Wrong. The NEC Handbook has not been adopted anywhere, is not of itself a standard and is copyright protected. Veeck does not apply.

Yes - you are stealing. The work that you are making available to others has nothing to do with the drivel below.
Someone under the command of a

That is *NOT* the issue. The issue is the illegal violation of a copyright for a work that has nothing to do with Veeck; a work that is not a standard; a work that cannot be adopted as law.
Ed

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- Nehmo

- ehsjr -

- Nehmo Of course I want people who want it to get copy of the NEC handbook [1]. I dont recognize the copyright either. And I have further views on the subject. But again, in this instance, I simply posted a brief hash of a pdf. Posting ed2k links is not considered to be violating copyrights. If you have a case or a law that says otherwise, I challenge you to cite it.
Even websites that are extremely sensitive to copyright trouble allow ed2k links. Afterdawn http://www.afterdawn.com /, comes to mind. There are also many websites that publish ed2k links. http://www.google.com/search?&q 2k . Its really a somewhat obsolete technology now that the faster but similar torrents are around. And by the way, how much of internet traffic is torrent related? Please let us know what you come up with.
Anyway, you dont like people getting the handbook, dont like me posting the link, you accuse me of writing drivel, etc. So those who agrees with you can ignore the link.
[1] Im tired of people asking What does NEC say on .
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Nehmo wrote:

But according to that reasoning it would be the responsibility of the permitting office (where it became the force of law) to supply it to you by arrangement with the copyright holder. The NEC was written as a reference by a private company that expended money and resouces to produce it and holds the copyright to their work. I don't see where they are under any obligation to supply it to you for free.
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- Nehmo

- George -

- Nehmo Assuming the copyright was valid and that such things can be copyrighted
True, it is irresponsible for a state to adopt a law without providing for the public to have access to it. But the deed is done. And since NFPA allowed this adoption, indeed, encouraged it, NFPA cant complain now.
- George -

- Nehmo I dont have the time nor motivation to adequately research the subject, but just how private is NFPA? Its been intertwined with government for a long time.
--
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NFPA is a scam. They have hundreds of standards, which comprise thousands of dollars worth of books. If you wanted the law concerning something as simple as the smoke detector in your bedroom you would need to buy NFPA70, NFPA72, NFPA101 and NFPA1 to get all the rules. They do not all appear in any of one the books. It is strange to me that the states will write most of the building code into statute which is treely available but they simply adopt various NFPA standards.
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Nehmo wrote:

Any written work has an inherent copyright whether it is enforced by the holder or not is another issue...

I don't know that NFPA can prevent the reference of their material, only the redistribution thereof in violation of copyright law...

Actually, NFPA is a nonprofit organization, not a "company" in the sense of being a for profit enterprise. It isn't "intertwined" w/ government at all.
See
http://www.nfpa.org/categoryList.asp?categoryID3&URLout%20Us&cookie%5Ftest=1
"The mission of the international nonprofit NFPA is to reduce the worldwide burden of fire and other hazards on the quality of life by providing and advocating consensus codes and standards, research, training, and education. NFPA membership totals more than 79,000 individuals from around the world and more than 80 national trade and professional organizations.
"Established in 1896, NFPA serves as the world's leading advocate of fire prevention and is an authoritative source on public safety. In fact, NFPA's 300 codes and standards influence every building, process, service, design, and installation in the United States, as well as many of those used in other countries. NFPA's focus on true consensus has helped the association's code-development process earn accreditation from the American National Standards Institute (ANSI)"
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On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:45:11 -0600, Duane Bozarth

If you are one of the directors of NFPA, sitting on your yacht, that is a distinction without a difference. This thing is a perpetual motion money machine. Every time the local government adopts a standard that insures the sale of many tens of thousands of overpriced books. The standards themselves interlock with other standards requiring buying more books.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

And how would you propose to have a Standards organization work and support itself and its work?
There are only two board members of NFPA that are full-time NFPA employees. While I don't have renumeration figures, I seriously doubt the Directors are gettin obscenely wealthy from their compensation from NFPA.
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On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 11:34:02 -0600, Duane Bozarth

Perhaps my problem with the whole idea of too many standards. At a certain point we are overcome with standard overload. The original idea was to make the code easier to enforce. We ended up making it more complicated. Florida has codified everything but the NFPA electric code and some parts of the fire code, adopting NFPA standards as written. I suspect Florida end up rewriting the whole thing into the FBC ... as soon as THEY figure out what the NFPA standard acttually says. My main beef with NFPA is the way they will reference another standard, without quoting the text they reference. In my smoke detector quest I actually followed the references and in no case was the reference more than a few dozen words ... but without another $100 book, you couldn't read them. It was clear they were just selling books. I have lived intimately with the NEC for over a decade as an inspector. I understand how it is developed. The mob rule process they have to "improve" this document has simply made it a Fibber McGees closet of contradictory rules that get reshuffled every 3 years, fixing one problem and creating two more. Why should every stupid thing someone MIGHT do be in the law anyway?
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Now there's some in there I _can_ agree with...
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of course. Why do you think AFCIs are now required for bedrooms?
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I believe you may have chosen a rather bad analogy. AFCI's were made code for the same reason that GFCI's were; for safety. Many fires are attributed to loose connections. An AFCI may be able to detect this and kill the circuit before it sits there, day-after-day, week-after-week, lowering the kindling temperature of the surrounding construction and eventually causing a fire. BTW, bedrooms are just a start. In a future NEC edition, we may see ALL the receptacles requiring AFCI protection.
Consider all the costs associated with developing a standard. Travel vouchers, luncheons, mailings, etc. I chair a consensus committee for a standard (ANSI, not NFPA) and there's a tremendous amount of work that goes into creating one of these. BTW, the cost of the standard when placed on sale is set by the association underwriting the standard, and not by ANSI.
You (or if may have someone else, hard to keep track) are right about how much it costs to maintain a set of standards. We spend hundreds each year on standards, and not just the standards, there are state amendments, testing, courses for certification and maintaining licenses and certifications, travel and lodging, etc. All of this gets passed along to the client of course. But that's the cost of doing business.

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Dennis wrote:

the Consumer Product Safety Commission. The CPSC was interested how to reduce residential electrical fires. AFCIs did not exist at that point.
Current AFCIs only detect "parallel" faults (and 30 ma ground faults). They do not currently detect "series" faults, like loose connections, but will be required to starting 2008. I think series faults are harder to distinguish from normal usage.
bud--
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wrote:

Plus a massive lobbying effort by Cutler Hammer who developed the AFCI in the first place. The other manufactures were dragged, kicking and screaming, into the AFCI market.
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wrote:

As near as I can tell from the information easily available on the net, the number of lives that will be saved yearly by requiring AFCIs everywhere in the universe is in the low double-digits. They are a defense against a trivial-to-nonexistant threat.
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