Must I gut the bathroom?

[DD_BobK]

As Smitty Two says......

it CAN be done DIY, it just takes some reallocation of time & effort, some planning and learning some new skills.

There is a guy on this newsgroup who proposed digging an additional 3' in his crawlspace to improve working access, I estimated the job in the neighborhood of 50 to 100 days of hand digging. He developed a process (with some craigslist equipment) and eventually got it done. A hard dirty job but accomplished with continuing effort.

Success or failure on this project will be determined mostly by whether or not your wife has total "buy in" or just says she does and then becomes unhappy. :(

My buddy & I have re-done a couple kitchens and in our experience the lady of the house gets grumpy after a certain number of days of inconvenience....depending on the level of inconvenience (no tub is minor, no shower is worse, no toilet is a problem)

I've nearly completely gutted a kitchen & the ajoining laundry room; per my wife's request.

BUT all major functions still work; stove, sink, fridge. I've removed layers of linoleum & plywood down to T&G fir sub floor, modified the plumbing, gas & electricity such that she can get a feel for the new increased floor space & try out (full scale prototyping) different but fully functional layouts. The stove & other pieces are on wheels and can be moved around at will. She's pretty happy with the current fully functional but still gutted layout.

My point is, if you can demo & still maintain function ..... you can stretch the job out. Which is helpful for a novice DIY'r and easier on the pocket book. Just take a some time after every effort and clean up.

Your bathroom space is tight, so you have limited design options. I'm guessing that there was a pedestal sink originally? The stall shower, toilet location and tub don't leave much sink space so I can see your desire to "lose the stall shower".

You a finalized bathroom layout...imo the window in the tub (soon to be tub / shower) area is a bit of a PITA. :( You might consider (from the door) this layout along the plumbing wall; tub, sink, toilet. Relocating the toilet might be a problem but its current central location limits design options.

You might be able to hire an experienced person on an hourly basis to provide help & guidance.

cheers Bob

[BobR]

If you are dealing with an OLD house that may have gone through several minor updates over the years then you are probably better off to gut the bathroom and build it up from scratch replacing and or repairing the plumbing in the process. The benefits to this are many starting with updated plumbing, insulation, walls, and possibly even the replacement of rotten studs and flooring.

The gutting operation is something that you can do yourself without a huge effort or expense. Just be careful to not damage anything that you may want to keep in the process. I would recommend (and have done myself) just planning on removing everything down to the studs and bare floor. If the studs are OK and not suffering from rot, check and replace the insulation with new or supplement as needed. Repair and/ or replace the plumbing which may require some help from a professional depending on code requirements.

Next, use a plastic liner on the walls to seal them before putting up a good concrete backerboard on the walls and floor (depending on floor material). I know you could use gypsum but why in a bathroom that is as small as yours? Its just not worth it when the concrete backerboard will provide much better service for a very long time. Use screws to mount the backerboard. Once this is done, you can proceed to do as much of the remainder of the remodel as you are comfortable with or hire someone to do it.

It is time consuming, dirty, and a pain in too many places to mention but if you take your time it is probably something that YOU can do yourself and do a really fine job at. The amount of money you can save depends on how much you complete yourself.

Good luck and have fun with it.

[Michael B]

Before I did the remodel, I talked with Home Despot folks. They endorsed breaking up the tub with a sledge hammer. Well, when I was doing it, the sledge just bounced, and I could swear the tub smiled at me. I used an old pick. The kind with a point on one side, and a flat end on the other. An old one, with plenty of heft. I hit the tub with it, made a pointed fracture, followed that fracture line along, and had that tub outta there in an hour. I ended up bringing a 4"x4" piece of the tub back to the HD guys to encourage them to mention using a pick the next time someone asked.

And hey, have you been to a Habitat for Humanity ReStore? I wanted a comfortable tub for a sec> Of cousre, if I can't just refinish the tub, or it's likely that the

[Jules]

Shhh... don't tell everyone ;) Those places are just awesome... I usually end up visiting ours at least once a month and picking something up. Helps to know prices though as some of their stuff can be a little high (e.g. we saw some security lights there a while ago, but the same ones could be had new with warranty elsewhere for only a couple of $ more).

cheers

Jules

[dgk]

There is a 1/2 bathroom - toilet and sink. But the main one has a separate stall shower so all work on the tub area can proceed at leisure for a time.

[dgk]

No, I need a shower. We can use the downstairs toilet if need be.

I'll continue the thread here since it seems to have fragmented a bit.

I'm looking at the bathroom thinking about what needs to be done and what I can do. I'm sort of afraid to swing a sledge hammer at a wall and end up in the bedroom - that might be ok but being an attached house I'd rather not end up in the neighbor's bathroom (wet wall side).

I didn't realize I could remove the cast iron drain for the toilet and use PVC - that does mean that moving the toilet is more possible than I thought. I'm not sure it needs to be moved though - we need to plan that out.

The tub is the starting point though. I'd rather not end up in the kitchen. The tub is blocked by the vanity - not a big problem, but also by a radiator (steam heat) that is less than six inches from the tub and sticks out about 6 inches from the wall. I'd like to recess the radiator into the wall when this is all done if feasible. If not, I understand that I can take it to be standblasted and painted with a high heat aluminum paint. Or I just buy a new radiator.

Ah, the drain from the vanity sink goes into a large solid pipe coming out around a foot from the wall. That's going to make it tougher to remove the tub as well.

Maybe first I look into the shower body. That's hiding behind cement that should be fun to bust up. I'd like to get the tub out, a new one in, and get the shower part working. I can line the walls with plastic for the moment. But I don't want to damage the new tub doing the rest of the stuff.

What's the problem with a window by a shower? I had one in my old apartment and it was not an issue.

Maybe I should get in a plumber for a consult.

[hallerb]

=BDfor the time

break cast iron tub with sledge hammer or pick into easy to move pieces.

shower water by window causes big rot problem

definetely get some estimates, plumbers may have a good idea you havent thought of.

and definetly gut the bathroom

[DD_BobK]

Houses (walls, floors & fixtures) are not as easily destroyed or damaged in real life as they are on TV or in movies.

When you demo the bathroom, you;re only going to be going after (mostly) the "finishes"; tile, plaster, wood lath, etc.

An assortment of pry bars and small 2x4 chunks ( ~4" & 10" & 16") to use as impromptu fulcrums will be useful. Cutting piers, tin snips and a Sawzall style saw, also a decent sized framing hammer. A circular saw would be handy. Some medium to large sized pipe wrenches as well.

What IS your tool situation?

Take it easy with the "sledge hammer" btw I cannot recall my use of a real sledge hammer on an interior demo (of course I have a Hilt TE-54 rotary / breaking hammer). But seriously, you want to remove this stuff not pulverize into dust. I think you'll be surprised how little use a sledge hammer really is.

and most importantly...a roll of painters plastic & tape (to make a drape for the door opening to control dust). Allowing dust to migrate everywhere is going to piss of the roommate.

The window in the shower is only a problem depending on the sill desgin & material, window design & material. Wooden sills dont work so good in a shower....a tiled sill is fine. In any case the window will most likely be a lot happier with its own "mini shower curtain". There is a reason that most "modern" tub / showers have "high windows" or none at all.

btw I assume by "shower body" you mean a valve body that can do shower or tub? I would suggest getting a 4 1/2" grinder with a diamond wheel (& shop vac) cutting a nice rectangular section of the tile so you can cleanly access the existing valve body to eval the situation.

cheers Bob

[Stormin Mormon]

Did you learn hygene from the homeless ladies at Grand Central?

[Stormin Mormon]

Old cast iron tubs might be worth money. I'd offer it on Ebay and Craigslist for a while before deciding to break it down.

[LdB]

Anything is possible. It's only up to you to decide what you are willing to do. Before I retired I worked in the telecommunications industry, no construction experience at all. I built the house I'm living in. I hired contractors for the foundation, heating/AC and drywall taping. The rest I did with help from friends and family.

I should say doing the rest . I'm in the process of building my kitchen cupboards . Here's a few images of the house and a set of cupboards I built in the utility room for practice.

If your worried about the neighbors, start with a smaller hammer. The radiator can be moved and changed. Maybe underfloor? I know very little about your type of heating system.

Window in shower? I wouldn't do it, but many others have. As long as you can keep the water from getting into the walls it will work. Potential for major problems if you don't get it right.

That's the best part of DIY. You have as many chances to get it right as you want. There are no such things as mistakes, just learning experiences. I've had a few of them over the years.

You should post a few pictures of the bathroom. I would give others a better idea of what your doing. At this point I and others can't do much more than to wish you luck.

LdB

[dgk]

I doubt it Stormin. No claw feet to make it interesting. Just a no-longer-shinny piece of metal. Ebay does have quite a few tubs but I think they're all new.

[dgk]

Pictures are here:

Yes, I expect I will have many learning experiences with this - the SO will consider them something else.

Those cabinets look fine. I'll deal with the kitchen after the bathroom is finished. I'd hate to drop a tub on new cabinets.

I wonder what they use to separate attached houses? Cinderblock I think. I'll start by digging into the cement you can see behind the tiles in the first picture. There must be studs back there somewhere.

[Jim Elbrecht]

-snip-

If there is room- like 5 feet or so- they just stick another house in there-

Doesn't really help you with your project- but at least you can take comfort in the fact that things could be worse.

Jim

[Stormin Mormon]

Ah, that helps with the big picture. Carry on..... and thank you.

[DD_BobK]

DGK-

Don't be too hasty to dismiss Stromin's comment about the tub and swing that hammer. A cast iron tub (if removed from an installation) can be refurbished and re-fired....giving it a 2nd life of another 50+ years.

Ebay, though an excellent marketplace for many items, is not the ultimate arbiter of value. Once something gets beyond the UPS, FedEx, USPS "box it & ship it" realm, ebay is less useful.

A metro area craigslist would be the way to go. You could even list it BEFORE removal to see if there is interest. If you're really serious about being "green", keeping an old cast iron tub from the scrap heap earns oyu fair number of "tree hugger points".

One man's trash is another man's treasure......reduce, reuse, recycle.

cheers Bob

[LdB]

Not a lot of room to work with. Typical 5' wide pre yuppie bathroom. If it was up to me I would consider closing off the bathroom window completely and replacing your tub with a three piece completely enclosed fiberglass unit with a good set of glass shower doors. I don't much care for shower curtains and clear glass shower doors will help keep the space looking bigger. I have an enclosed fiberglass tub. It's big enough for me to shower in comfortably and it's easy to keep clean. As others have also mentioned a window in a shower is not a good idea. Just make sure you can get the new tub into the space before set off the first charge of dynamite. :)

Remove the existing shower and vanity. Move the toilet closer to the tub and use the old shower/toilet space for a larger vanity. By the way, my bathroom does not have a window, a fan is all you need. I have a heat exchanger that runs 24/7. It keeps the bathroom clear.

Replace the radiator with a baseboard unit. Put in new tile and flooring.

Lots of work and it will cost a bundle but if you do it yourself it will be worth it.

LdB

[Michael B]

When I did mine, I put a wood handrail 33" above the floor, with 4 handrail brackets secured into the studs behind the drywall, from the edge of the shower stall to the bathroom door. Two coats of polyurethane. The function was to serve as a long towel bar, but also to serve as a grab bar for my wife if she got unsteady. A similarly braced handrail goes up the wall alongside the shower unit.

But a month later, I was involved in a hit & run accident, and my knee was injured and I had to wear a full leg brace. pretty damned difficult to sit on the pot, but I was able to hold on the rails and sit, or be able to stand by pulling up. It was made for my wife, but I used it first for several months.

Try it. Keep one leg straight as you sit down on the pot. My rails are 23" from the front part of the elongated bowl of the American Standard Cadet. Even nowadays, I find myself grabbing a bar getting up, it's awfully handy.

[aemeijers]

(snip

(snip)

(snip)

Every shower I have ever seen with a window in it, the window had rot problems. Replaced more than one sill with rot-resistant material, but if the window is wood, it is hell to keep paint on it. I like daylight, so I'd replace the window with glass block, which can be tied right in to the water barrier layer of the shower surround. Replace the inside edge of jamb with something flush and waterproof, or inset it for a shampoo ledge. Outside can even use the original window jamb as framing, so you don't have to mess with the siding or whatever. It takes a little fussy carpentry to retrofit, but you can make it look like it was always there. If you have an exhaust fan, you don't even need the little air vent thing in the middle, which is a pain to keep clean and usually drafty in winter.

-- aem sends...

[Michael B]