My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just points straight out from the front of the fixture.
The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards it. They sure got that right!
The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.
However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street activate the light.
Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone else) would approach their front door.
What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up people walking straight towards it?
BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.
One alternative is to use X10. These are electrical products that communicate via the existing house wiring. They have a motion sensor that is wireless, operates on batteries, and can be mounted outdoors anywhere. So, you could mount it so that people will walk across in front of it as they come up the sidewalk.
The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small module that you plug in to any nearby AC outlet in the house. That module puts the communication signal on the AC house wiring, where it should be able to be picked up by any X10 device that is connected to the AC wiring anywhere in the house.
So, the next part you need is an X10 wall switch. It replaces a standard wall switch and can be turned on/off manually like a regular switch, or via the X10 AC signals.
So, when someone walks by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to the wireless receiver. The receiver puts the signal on the AC line and the switch receives it and turns the light on.
The motion sensor also has a light sensor, so it can be programmed to always turn the light on at dusk, or to only turn it on after dusk if motion is detected, etc. You can also program how long it stays on after motion is sensed.
The modules are cheap and can be found for under $10 on Ebay. I put one in for a friend recently similar to what you want to do. The motion sensor is located on the outside garage wall, so when you drive up, it turns on the 3 lights outside the garage. The same sensor also sends a dusk signal to a switch that works the front door lights on the other side of the house. It turns those lightsm which are CFL on at dusk and off at dawn.
Some caveats:
X10 is not always 100% reliable, but I've used it for this kind of application and it works fine. Also the outdoor module probably has a life of a couple years, but then they only cost $10 and you can even use double sided velcro tape to attache them.
Any of the X10 modules will work with incandescent bulbs. If you want to use CFL, you need to get a module that says it will work with any loads. For example, they have modules that are specd for appliances, so they have a relay inside, as opposed to electronic switching and will work with CFL.
As with any motion sensor, you can get false turn-on from moving shrubs, etc.
The fixture dad bought has all of the dusk-to-dawn, timer, etc. features that you mentioned, which is what he wanted, so that's good.
re: "The next part you need is an X10 wall switch...when someone walks by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to the wireless receiver. The receiver puts the signal on the AC line and the switch receives it and turns the light on."
I assume the switch fits in a standard box, right? The current switch setup is 2 switches in one box: A STSP switch for the outside light and a 3-way switch for a switched outlet. Best case is both switches fit in the existing box - and still match. Is that doable - barring any "this is an old house" - issues?
One more question: With most motion detector set-ups, you can override the sensor by toggling the switch within 3 seconds to force the light to be on all the time. Does it work the same way with the x10 switches? Can you turn the light on constantly with a toggle and then reset it to motion-sense with another toggle?
It has to do with how many zones are formed by the optics in the sensor. Better ones have more zones and will be more sensitive to someone walking directly towards the sensor.
I think you're best served by not using X-10 - and this advice comes from someone who owns every piece of X-10 gear ever made and uses it daily (along with Jeff Volp's XTB booster - a must for any X-10 setup). It's overkill for this app and is likely to introduce more problems than it solves. One thing you might find is that there's no neutral at the switch - although the presence of a nearby switched outlet means there's probably one nearby. It's also important if you're going to use CFL bulbs.
CFL's don't play nice with X-10 (as well as a lot of other devices that draw power from 110VAC line). If you intend on using them, beware that many take a long time to warm up and are basically unsuitable for walkway lighting. Some CFl's even relight themselves when you turn them off under X-10 control - very annoying! By the time the bulb comes up to max illumination, you're long past the sensor and the light.
I'd pigtail the unit you have with some lamp cord to see if it works with CFLs before going through the hassle of mounting it. If the lights are going to be on for a few hours, it would pay to use CFLs. If the lights will be strictly motion sensor operated, then normal floods would be the choice of bulb.
Ha. Not that I know of, but there's always something new under the sun. X-10 just requires too many pieces to do what a dedicated motion sensor light does. I have a full set of X-10 motion detector floodlights sitting in a box in the attic because they were not as easy to use as dedicated motion detector floods. I use dedicated, self-contained units for the driveway fitted with tungsten floods, but I also have CFL fixtures that are X-10 controlled that I had to run new wire to get them to function correctly. None of my circa 1940 house's built-in fixtures have neutral wires and CFLs just flash away like strobe lights in such circuits with X-10 switches. X-10 trickles a tiny bit of current through tungsten filament bulbs to operate. CFL don't pass that trickle current - they just absorb it until enough builds up to flash the lamp. Very annoying. Sometimes, the flashing is enough to activate the X-10 "current sense" switching and the light comes back on several seconds after you turn it off.
It could be that your units will be mounted so that they really will detect motion where you want it detected, but units that allow you to swivel the detector head are much better. Read the instructions carefully regarding neutral connections. I think you're going to be good to go because the switched out *should* require a neutral in the same gang box, but only your tester knows for sure. Beware that lots of tyro electricians mistakenly use a ground wire when they should be using a neutral - your box may be that way - it's a sin I've seen too many times to count.
re: "You could use an emitter / detector across the path"
Did you miss the part where I said:
"...mounting a separate sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture..."
Yes, it is the same size as a regular single pole switch.
Yes, but the switches won't match. The X10 uses a push button switch to turn the light on and off. I don't find it to big a big deal though. You can find pics of them on Ebay or Smarthome, etc.
I don't see why it's overkill if it directly solves the problem by securing one small motion detector to the side of the house, plugging in a wireless receiver in any nearby outlet in the house, and replacing one wall switch.
The neutral is only necessary if you want to use CFL lights. The standard X10 wall switch doesn't require a neutral. And since CFLs are not that useful for motion activated lights, this is probably a moot point. If you want to use CFLs then you need the other X10 switch that does use a neutral and has a relay so it will work any load.
Which is why not having a neutral likely isn't an issue.
I've only seen this happen when you use the wrong X10 switch, ie the one with no neutral. Then the CFL will partially light all the time because that switch relies on a small current flowing in the circuit to power the X10 switch electronics.
Yep
Of course you can. The X10 wall switch functions EXACTLY like the existing switch for manual use. Push the button, the light turns on. Push it again, the light turns off. No need to do any special sequencing. You still have a manual switch there like before that also responds to the X10 commands.
Yeah, it requires a whopping 3 items: wireless motion sensor that you mount where you want it outside, wireless receiver that plugs in an outlet, and a switch that replaces the existing light switch. All that probably cost $25 and can be installed in 30 mins. And it gives him the freedom to mount the motion sensor exactly where he wants it. Compare that to replacing one or two outside fixtures and it seems about the same to me in effort, but a lot less in cost. Plus you can use any style outside fixtures you want, the existing ones or any new ones. You're not limited to the models that come with motion sensors built-in.
=A0>I have a full set of X-10 motion detector floodlights sitting
That's because you used the WRONG X10 wall switch. The one with a neutral solves that problem. As I described in my post, I have a very similar settup and it works perfectly with two CFLs that are in the original front door fixtures. We used CFLs because they are on from dusk till dawn. But they are activated by the X10 motion sensor unit that is located by the garage. That one motion detector turns on the incandescent garage lights when motion is detected and also turns on the front door lights at dusk.
Detectors are always better at detecting motion across their path instead of coming toward them. That is the problem Derby has. I don't see how swiveling the sensors mounted on the lights at the door is going to solve his problem of a straight in sidewalk approach.
X10 RECEPTICLE modules don't have the current sense "feature" but for some strange reason still have the trickle current. A CFL won't be completely off unless you have some other load connected too.
I wanted to keep the existing fixture so I mounted a sensor about 3 feet to the side of the light and ran the wires between the joists. Since I was going to have to add a waterproof box I decided to add a outlet as well for the Xmas lights.
It works as intended, lights come on as soon as you step out of the door or approach the entrance from the driveway.
The sensor is similar to the floodlight type with over 180 deg coverage.
The relay wont partialy pass power at all when its not triggered, I have 3, x10 outdoor motion sensors, the old style that hard mount and they pass no power my 10 outdoor cfl lights dont flicker at all, I have purchased maybe 10, x10 sensors in 20 years. The interior modules do pass some power that allows flickering.
Nonsense. The switches that have a neutral use that for the power to the X10 switch electronics. The relay is a simple mechanical one and operates as a switch. Please explain how current flows through an open mechanical relay.
No. They add resistors to partially bypass the relay. This may be just to enable the local control "feature", but that bypass exists in receptacle modules which don't have local control.
Those are unusual modules. Maybe they did make some like that. I have a lot of different modules all of which pass current.
re: "Seriously though, no respectable landscape designer would put in an arrow-straight 40' path to the front door these days."
I guess it all depends on the layout of the lot and dwelling, doesn't it?
Take a look at the L shape shown here:
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It's a bit out of scale, but the lower 2 (horizontal) squares are the back apartment and top 2 (vertical) squares are the front apartment. My Mom and Dad live in the back, my sister lives in front.
The area in blue to the right of the front apartment is the lawn, driveway and walkway to front door of Dad's apartment.
re: "Take the opportunity to move the beginning of the path over
10-15' feet"
As per the picture, there's really only one way to move it and that would be into the middle of the driveway.
Now, you may ask "Well, doesn't the light come on when you pull in the driveway?" Yes, it does, but here's some more info:
Dad also owns the house next door to his, basically where the J shape is in the picture. That house has a garage, so he parks there most nights, especially in the winter. Therefore, he approaches his house by walking down the sidewalk, across the front apartment, and turns right onto his walkway, which leads him straight towards the front door. I guess he could keep walking past his driveway and then cut back across it to approach the front door at an angle, but that's just a tad inconvenient, don't you think?
re: "You also mentioned cars triggering the light"
I only mentioned that to bolster the fact that the sensor works as described in the literature and that the problem is the "straight on" approach. I already lowered the sensitivity to shorten the range so it doesn't reach the street, but that doesn't solve the problem of the light not turning on until you are at the stoop.
The floodlights are really an exception and don't have current sensing (and thus trickling) built-in. That's because they are not the kind of lights that would ever be operated "locally" which is X-10's term for using the lamp's built-in switch to "tell" the X-10 module (by the interruption in trickle current flow) that the user has toggled the lamp switch and to turn on the module. I have not tried them with CFLs, but I will be doing that shortly.
I just checked an X10 appliance module that plugs into the wall and has a mechanical relay. Using a high impedance voltmeter, it showed
110V with the module off. So, Mark is correct, they do pass some current even when off. However, the AC circuit voltage measured at the outlet is 120, so even the high impedance meter is enough to substantially decrease the voltage, meaning whatever current there is when it's off, it's very small.
That X10 module is hooked up to a 100W CFL and with the module off, the CFL does not show any light in a completely dark room. Its totally out.
I have another X10 wall switch that is the type that will work with any load, not just resistive. It's been connected for a couple years now to small CFLs that are at the front door. They are the candle type, there are 4 of them and are maybe 25W light output each, meaning it wouldn't take much to light them up. They too are totally out at night.
Prior to using that X10 switch with neutral, I had used a regular X10 switch. With that, I did experience the phenomenon where the CFLs lit at a very low levels from the pass through current. I replaced it with the X10 switch for any load and as described above, it works perfectly.
From all that, I concluded that with the mechanical relay type X10s there would be no current flowing with it off. Having tested the plug-in one, it's clear that as Mark pointed out, there is still some current flowing. But, from a practical standpoint it doesn't appear to matter as both of these applications using CFLs work perfectly.
The mystery remains as to why any current is still being passed in the modules that use a neutral. I can't conceive of why they would design it that way. With the modules that don't have a neutral, it makes sense. They power the X10 electronics off the current in the circuit, making it unnecessary to have a neutral, which in turn makes it installable anywhere whether you have a neutral or not.
The key point is that for the application Derby is looking at, if he want to use CFL, he needs to get the wall switch that will work any load, which is the one that also has a neutral. I have exactly what he is trying to do working here. But the whole thing is largely a moot point, because I don't think CFLs for an outside motion light is appropriate anyway.
It doesn't. It flows AROUND the relay using a resistor in the module. This might have been put there to support the module's "local control" feature (which only half works. You can't turn the device off that way without disabling remote control). I don't know why it's in the receptacle module (no local control). It still is.
But not another CFL load! I just tried running two CFLs from a splitter plugged into an appliance module and "bang-bang" both turn themselves back on, in serial order. The load has to be something that absorbs the trickle current completely, and that's usually a tungsten lamp, although it can be a non-PS power supply or other type of device.
While there are many "mods" listed for turning off local current sense, I've found that they don't eliminate the flow of trickle current into a CFL and thus, they still flash but at least they won't spontaneously relight. It's such a bummer that X-10 should really come out with a CFL-friendly control module. I am surprised they haven't, given the potential scope of the problem with the phase out of tungsten bulbs. Hmmm. Years of Usenet have taught me to Google before bashing.
OK - just checked with X-10's live support. They are still pushing AM466 modules which flash and relight like crazy! The actually called me on the phone (sales, not techie) sent me three useless links, said it was "noise on the line" (tell that to three different X-10 meters I own that say "no noise") and were pleasant, friendly and yet totally unhelpful in solving the flashing problem. Google seemed to intimate there was a new, CFL-friendly module, but it had actually done the annoying trick of turning my search words into a mis-labeling of a link to the plain old flash-like-a-turn-signal AM466 appliance mod.
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