most economical (gasoline)

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On 5/25/2013 12:39 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Some brands have higher detergent levels in their Premium, than in their Regular gas. Shell is one of them. There's been independent tests posted on the internet back this up.
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Then the next logical question would be who needs this detergent and does it actually do anything or is it marketing hype? I've had all kinds of cars and put a lot of miles on many of them, didn't use premium in most of them and had no problems. And given that most people use regular or one step up, you would think there would be a lot of problems if this extra detergent was necessary.
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On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:44:11 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

People are stupid. Shell marketing knows that. So they sow FUD with the "detergent" question. Shell marketing is *not* stupid!
I once saw a statistic that only 5% of the cars out there have a compression ratio such that they need the higher octane (aka "premium") gasoline to prevent knocking (piezo-electric knock sensors aside).
So, as you said, if 95% of the cars out there were getting insufficient detergents, you'd think we'd know this by now.
PS: Yes, I do know that when fuel injection first became popular, the government had to mandate a certain detergent level for all gasolines; but that was decades ago.
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On 05/25/2013 01:08 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:

That can be mitigated by the periodic use of a good fuel system cleaner like Techron, and any "top tier" gasoline brand should have enough detergents in any grade to not require additives unless you're doing a remedial clean up.
NB: I know that "top tier" is probably more marketing BS and I have no issues using e.g. Sunoco fuel in my car even though it is not "top tier" but I didn't want to start another discussion of what is a "good brand" or not with the inevitable sidebar "it all comes from the same refinery anyway." Long story short, I feel confident buying gasoline from any station that is a major national brand.
nate
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On Sat, 25 May 2013 13:46:38 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

Techron is actually a trademark and not a chemical, which is found on a wide suite of solutions.
However ...
Guess what is in those various formulations?
The exact same stuff that is already in gasoline!
Yup! - poly ether amines - iso octanol (alcohol) - aliphatic naptha (aromatics)
Check out the MSDS if you don't believe me.
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On 05/25/2013 07:33 PM, Danny D wrote:

I certainly do believe that, was just pointing out that Techron is pretty much the most universally well regarded of fuel system cleaners and is in fact effective.
I also agree that it is likely not necessary unless there's a known issue with fuel injectors. I do use it in my vehicles as one is a BMW with the N54 engine and already had one of its second set of fuel injectors replaced recently, and the other, well, just because I'm a little on the anal retentive side. A treatment before every oil change should be more than sufficient for any but the most anal retentive.
nate
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On Sat, 25 May 2013 19:52:20 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

Agreed. Those poly ether amines are also good for cleaning the fuel sending unit of sulfurous deposits, I'm told.
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wrote:

Yup, there was a big discussion about whether you needed the ridiculously priced "Ring Free" but a quick look at the MSDS showed it was basically Techron or any number of other magic potions
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wrote:

Polyether amines are not present in most gasolines. They are a component of the additive package in Chevron gasolines, and they are a very effective fuel system and combustion chamber cleaner. Chevron Techron was the first product marketed with concentrated PEA - many companies now have their own version.
And just because Techron is a brand name (not a trademark) does not make my recommendation any less legitimate - all "techron" contains some level of PEA -
Nowhere did I intimate Techron was a chemical. It is a brand name fuel conditioner that actually works. If I said I use PEA nobody would have a clue what it is or where to get it.
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On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:48:39 -0400, clare wrote:

Googling, I find that Chevron gasoline has 400 ppm polyetheramine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techron
Googling some more, we find that all top-tier gasolines meet a certain cleanliness standard; this standard does not require PEA - the manufacturers can meet the standard with *any* detergent package that works (and apparently many work as it's just soap for gas): http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
Googling for whether all gasolines sold in the US have polyetheramine detergents, and knowing that all those gasolines have detergents, we find this slide set from Chevron: http://www.aspalliance.org/presentations/Winter_2007/Future%20of%20the%20Fuel%20Additive%20Market-Burns-Chevron%20Oronite-12-04-05-07.pdf
Which intimates succinimides, and not polyetheramines, nor Polyisobutylene amines, are the most common detergents used in gasoline to meet the federal detergent standards.
In the same slide set, they say there is a demand for differentiation via additives, which means that if detergent 1 and detergent 2 work, if you can promote detergent 1 (even though it may be no better than detergent 2), then you've accomplished that goal of differentiation (hence, as we all know from Eco 101, you can charge more to those who fall for the trick).
So, I'd say you are correct that probably not all gasolines have PEA, but, all gasolines have detergents, and one detergent may be as good as another - but even if they're the same, Chevron marketing will try to differentiate their soap from the other guys' soap - so that they can charge more to the sap who falls for the switcheroo.
BTW, the slide set intimates that California emission standards force manufacturers to improve their fuel - and - well - I do live in California - so - it may be that all gasoline sold in CA is "top tier" with respect to detergents; but I don't know that for a fact.
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On Sat, 25 May 2013 23:33:21 +0000, Danny D wrote:

I stand corrected by clare in fact, but not in substance.
All gasolines have detergents; and, many detergents work just as well as others - but most gasolines apparently use succinimides for detergents, while some use polyetheramines (and others use polyisobutylene amines).
So, I thank clare for bringing this error to my attention, and, I'll revise that statement above to say that all gasolines meet the Federal standard for detergents, and all gasolines sold in California meet California standards for detergents, but they use different detergents to meet those standards.
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wrote:

The important thing is, do they work? Seems as though they do from my experience. I cannot think of a fuel related problems in the past 30+ years.
My car dealer though, tries to sell injector cleaning every year at $159. If I followed his advice, I'd have pissed away at least $4500 over the years and only achieved in making the dealer more profitable. That is why I don't use the dealer for service.
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On Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:56 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I agree with you, based on my personal experience.
All gasolines sold in my state have the three ingredients that are sold by the Techron marketing team as an additive package (i.e., detergent, alcohol, & aromatics).
To me, adding *more* of the same, is not necessarily a good thing.
It's clear, to me, that "Techron" (which indicates some level of PEA detergents) is merely a marketing "differentiation" created solely to garner more money from the consumer.
All gasolines have detergents. Detergents are cheap. PEA is cheap. Techron is not.
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wrote:

The difference between PEA and other detergents that work as a standard fuel detergent, is PEA is the only one that is effective at REMOVING deposits when used as an additive. The other detergents used in tier 1 gasolines help PREVENT deposits. PEA, as used in Techron and a number of other additives is one of the only fuel detergents found to be very effective at REMOVING deposits - not only in the fuel system, but both before the intake valve and inside the combustion chamber.
MMO and Sea Foam and several other lesser products are fairly good at cleaning the fuel system, and have a reasonable effect on existing deposits - helping loosen them up and get them out - but nothing close to the PEA additives.
Some additives that are added to the fuel in distribution work to some extent to remove deposits as well, but are unsuitable as customer installed additives.
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On Sun, 26 May 2013 19:19:25 -0400, clare wrote:

Hmmm... I have no idea how effective PEA is vs the other detergents ... but ... from what I had read when I looked up the succinimides, not all Tier 1 gasolines have PEA, yet all Tier 1 gasolines meet the desired high-end automotive manufacturer standards for removing deposits.
If that statement is true, then that would indicate that there are other ways to get good detergent action than PEA.
Is that a correct assumption?
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wrote:

Read my previous statement. There ARE other detergents that allow a fuel to meet Tier 1 specs. However, NONE of them have proven to be terribly effective at REMOVING accumulated deposits - which is not the job of a tier 1 gasoline. Tier 1 gasolines are to avoid buildup in the first place.
PEA, as a consumer level additive, is the most effective way to REMOVE engine deposits.
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On Tue, 28 May 2013 21:34:16 -0400, clare wrote:

Ah, I see the distinction. Thanks.
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On Sun, 26 May 2013 19:19:25 -0400, clare wrote:

Marvel Mystery Oil is about 80% napthenic hydrocarbons (CAS Number 64742525), aka, hydrogenated aromatics, with the rest being your basic mineral spirits (CAS Number 8052413) and a chlorinated benzene, namely 1,2-dichloro-benzene (CAS Number 95501).
Their advertising says it has the "mysterious ability to cure and prevent almost any engine ailment.".
Wow. That's better than aspirin & penicillin combined! If only it were true.
Sea Foam is half something called Pale oil, a third your basic Naptha, and a sixth your standard iso-propyl alcohol. Pale oil is basically a light machine oil (like what you put in your trumpet or sewing machine or hair clippers).
Why anyone would want to add oil, more alcohol, and more benzene to gasoline (which, by the way, is called "benzene" and not gasoline in other countries for obvious reasons), is well beyond my comprehension level.
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I have added lacquer thinner to gas.
Greg
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On Tue, 28 May 2013 19:05:51 +0000, gregz wrote:

I guess the theory is that the solvent cleans fuel injector openings; and, maybe it works - but - with all that smoke - I'd worry about the catalytic converters and wonder how smoke is supposed to be cleaning my injectors (that's an indirect inference, of course).
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