more fun with air conditioning

[Marc O'Brien]

The cat sat on the mat.... Ha ha ah HAA HA HAA BWAA HA HAA!!

Funny, hey bill?

Bwaa Hahahaha !!

[Marc O'Brien]

Sorry, Vicki, you're having another ADD attack :)

It's not money I'm talking about, it's mental health.

[Tekkie]

Don Ocean posted for all of us....

Hey did you know two of their coaches resigned in disgrace because some of their boiz were allegedly raping female students? One reportedly discouraged one victim from reporting it to PD and the other didn't report it according to federal law? This is a lawa school? Sports pwheeey...

[Vicki Szaszvari]

Marc, you're not an authority on that subject...

[Marc O'Brien]

None the less, I still can't help being concerned.

[Marc O'Brien]

Thank you , Don, if at least it is an attempt by you to defy the stereotypical pot/kettle dupe-think.

[Marc O'Brien]

Individualism is not easily interchangeable with loneliness, and neither would togetherness be with, say, tribalism, or groupthink :)

[TURTLE]

***Now all your calculation look good to cool it back off as to saving half the energy to do so. There is a few things you forgot. Laten air or heavy moisture content air is hell to cool off. On a 1.5 ton hvac system at 99%RH inside the house. The btu rating of the hvac system will be reduced by 2,880 btu's. just for moisture removial during the turn back on of the system when the moisture content had been let to rize. So your 18,000 btu unit is now 15,120 btu system till it gets the moisture out of the house. ***Now your forgot about the derating of the hvac system when you operate it in ambiants of over 95ºF outdoors. The HVAC system is rated at the BTU rating at 95ºF ambiant of the condenser. In the High % RH inside the house and you have only the rating 15,120 btu system. Then you put the 110ºF Ambiant temperature on the condenser which will derate the btu rating by 12% of the 15,120 btu system you have now. It comes to 13,305 btu ability you have now and have to cool the house with. Now as I can see your hvac system will take longer to cool the house off than the 2.4 hours as you had said. If the system staied on and keep the moisture down it would not have to fight the laten heat of the moisture all at one time. ***Now you had said to turn the system back on before you got home to get the temperature down to 70ºF inside the house. Now as you have a derated system for the laten heat and derating of the 110ºF outdoor temperature. You would need tom turn it back on about 4 hour before coming home and this would shorten your down time down to about 4 hours. Now you will be running the system 4 hours so that you can turn it off for 4 hours. So if you turn it off for 4 hour to save some money. It will still be running at a 50% run time running all the time or turning it off to feel like you are saving something. *** Now When hvac system that are being run at high anbiants of the indoor temperature you super heat will be off the chart till it gets below 80ºF inside the house and when your super heat is very high the compressor will use more electricity or watts during this time. By letting this condition happen you will be burning more power than running at normal indoor temperature. The higher the temperature is indoors and outdoor will definately cost more to operate. *** Now with all of this left out. You seem to not have a clue to what is going on in a hvac system operation in a home.

***Now first your going to have to leave them drug alone here for they are getting to you and your concept of what is going on here. ***Now either ASHRAE 55-2004 is full of shit or your full of shit. As I see what you said of 60ºF at a 90%RH is very cold to the average person. Nobody in their right mine is going to put up with 90%RH at 60ºF in any home. It would be muggey as hell in there. Your off the wall here son. ***Now You say 10%RH at 95ºF that you or maybe ASHRAE 55-2004 says this is very warm to the average person. At 10%RH and 95ºF is a very good condition and would feel pretty good to anybody. The only time this condition would feel warm to a person would be when it got over 98.6ºF the body temp.. ***Now you expressed a need to control the %RH in a home. We have controls now days that you can set the %RH and the temperature all with a thermostat hanging on the wall. ***Now Nick if the hvac system was designed correctly and not over sized as you can only deal with. The %RH and the temperature will go hand in hand as being correctly set if the system is left on 24 hours a day. All hvac systems are designed to be left on 24 hour a day and not off and on like you think they should be run.

***Now Nick when you start discussing the design of a hvac system with people who install, service, and work on them. You need more info on the business [really see what your talking about ] than what comes out of a book. The Book can only take you so far and then you have to go see what the thing is really doing when it is running. ***Now Nick try to get a clue when discussing hvac system and how they really work, but I will say you are good at the book part of the business. The Books are only half the way and the other half comes with OJT. Get out in the field and see for yourself.

TURTLE

P.S. Nick -- Does Lost in the 60's mean anything to you?

[nicksanspam]

For years, the goal has been to get above 1 :-) But that's less important, since the energy is free.

Nick

"Unglazed collector/regenerator performance for a solar assisted open cycle absorption cooling system" by M. N. A. Hawlader, K. S. Novak, and B. D. Wood of the Center for Energy System Research, College of Engineering and Applied Sciences, Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ 85287-5806 USA, in Solar Energy, Vol. 50, pp 59-73, 1993: "An ordinary black shingled roof [was] used as a collector/regenerator for the evaporation of water to obtain a strong solution of [lithium chloride] absorbent... Experimental results [with a 36'x36' roof] show a regeneration efficiency varying between 38 and 67%. The corresponding cooling capacities ranged from 31 to 72 kW (8.8 to 20 tons)", ie about 1 ton per 100 square feet of roof area, ie 1 ton per square :-)

In the house "water [the refrigerant] is sprayed into an evaporator, evacuated to about 5 mmHg of pressure, where it immediately flashes into vapor... Cold water, pumped from the bottom of the evaporator, flows through a fan coil... that blows cool air into the conditioned space. The absorber acts as a vapor compressor and condenser for the system. Water vapor from the evaporator flows over the absorber where it is absorbed by the concentrated absorbent. The continuous absorption of water vapor maintains a low pressure in the system and permits flashing of water in the evaporator... The product of the absorption process, a weak absorbent solution, collects at the bottom of the absorber to be pumped [up over the roof] for concentration."

"The dilute LiCl solution was delivered to the collector surface through a spray header spanning the top of the roof and made from 50.8 mm (2 in) diameter CPVC pipe fitted with 35 evenly spaced brass nozzles. The concentrated solution collected at the bottom... in a PVC rain gutter, and returned via gravity feed to a 1608 l (425 gallon) fiberglass tank... In the event of of a rain, fluid flowing off the collector could be manually diverted to a 946 l (250 gallon) wash tank or to a roof drain. During the initial phase of the rain, residual salt would be washed from the roof and collected in the wash tank to be stored for later regeneration. After sufficient rainfall, the rainwater is diverted to the roof drain."

[nicksanspam]

Not just me. Thousands of people say so :-)

Most people say they feel too cold at 60 F, no matter what the RH is.

Temperature is the main thing that determines comfort, especially for people who aren't working hard. If they aren't sweating, humidity is a lot less important than temperature.

And TURTLE says it's very cold :-) My grandmother used to talk about "Frozen Usher." He would only drive his buckboard into Mayfield, KY on the hottest day of the year, when he was all bundled up in his thick winter coat, with sweaters and gloves and a woolen hat...

Most people say they feel too hot at 95 F, no matter what the RH is.

No. The ASHRAE 55-2004 standard comfort zone upper temp limit is 82.2 F, regardless of humidity. Above that, most people feel too hot.

Nick

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Let me stop right here and say Nick your Full of shit to make a very stupit statement like this. You don't have to try to pass yourself off as a person who knows anything about the HVAC business at all any more for this statement tells me you don't have a clue at all.

I added the post to alt.hvac for a joke to listen to and have a chuckle.

TURTLE

[HvacTech2]

Hi Harry, hope you are having a nice day

On 04-Aug-04 At About 22:09:36, Harry Conover wrote to All Subject: Re: more fun with air conditioning

HC> From: [e-mail] (Harry Conover)

HC> Your technician was correct. He would determine if it was operating HC> at 100% though use his gauge set for pressure measurements, HC> and the temperatures measured on the evaporator and condensor HC> coil surfaces to approximate this determination.

Not on coil surfaces but Line temps as in superheat and sub cooling.

HC> So long as the freon in the system is at a sufficent level to HC> continuously provide bubble free liquid in the high pressure line, it HC> makes little difference in the operating characteristics of the air HC> conditioning system.

wrong again. in some systems you want bubbles in the liquid column such as in a piston type metering device.

HC> In fact, larger industrial systems always include a view port in the HC> liquid freon line to check for excess bubbles. Too many bubbles HC> may also reflect a need for the addition of freon to the system HC> or the installation of the system was faulty and contains trapped HC> air.

actually the sight glass is only supposed to be used only for moisture indication. the only proper way to check is gauges using superheat and/or subcooling depending on metering device.

HC> A refrigeration gauge set is incapable of revealing this information, HC> and indicates only that the pressures in the low and high pressure HC> sides of the system are consistent with the particular variety HC> of freon in use for the measured surface termperature on both the HC> condensor and evaporator coils. It reveals very little helpful HC> information about the adequacy of the freon charge in the system. HC> Usually a pocket sized card for the freon in use (typically HC> Freon-22 in small to medium size -- 3 to 30 tons -- central A/C HC> systems).

HC> On smaller home systems which lack a view port, most competent HC> refrigeration techs will, after checking the operating pressures, HC> charge the system up to the point where frost begins to appear on the HC> evaporator low pressure tube fitting. This is the point of optimal HC> cooling and presumably optimal system efficience.

wrong again. as I said before. the only way to properly charge a system is by superheat or subcooling. this "frost back" method is sure early death for a system.

HC> I'm not a refrigeration engineer

It's quite obvious to anyone in the trade.

-=> HvacTech2

[nicksanspam]

Incorrect. Check out ASHRAE standard 55-2004, if you please.

I'm happy enough to pass myself off as a person with two engineering degrees in sci.engr.heat-vent-ac :-)

We might all chuckle at your credentials...

Nick

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Yea, I don't have much but 40+ years in the HVAC/R business and run my own business for the last 20 years.

TURTLE

[0_Qed]

Turtle,

Rest =assured= , most folks that read your material will 'side' with you ... :-)

ME? I can out_credential the two(2) of you put "together" ... still, ... :-) ... I'd listen to you.

Qed.

[nicksanspam]

Someone else thinks 60 F is too hot and 95 F is too cold? :-)

Nick

[~^Johnny^~]

Especially with Peltier units

[Stormin Mormon]

Humility. Great trait.

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Common sence -- a great trait!!!!!!!

TURTLE

[m Ransley]

Honesty and knowing your trade a Greater Trait !!!!