Making screws easier to remove next time!


Pre. S. Is there such a thing as tempered aluminum?
So I got all the screws that I needed to out of the '69 Honda that hasn't been ridden since 1972, and I'm wondering if there is a way to make it easier the next time**. When I bought spark plugs last time, they gave me anti-sieze stuff, for a dollar, that is supposed to make the spark plugs not stick to the cylinder heads (especially maybe when the plugs are steel and the heads are aluminum, sort of like in many motorcycles where the screws are steel and the crankcases are aluminum.)
Can I, should I use this anti-sieze stuff when I reassemble the motorcycle? So it won't be stuck two years from now when I need to do something, or 20 years from now.
Or will this allow the screws and bolts to come out when I don't want them to?
Thanks.
**How I got it apart: They don't sell impact drivers at HD or Lowe's but they do have 2 basic models for sale at a small number of online sources. The easiest to buy from was JCWhitney, www.jcw.com , because there are other things there for me to buy, like motorcycle tire irons, tail light pulsator, rear turn signal lights (this bike never had them)
JCW has 3 things worth buying.
1) A set of 13 or 16 bits for my old impact driver. I'd ruined 2 and now 3 of the 4 bits that came with it.
2) An impact driver pretty much just like the one I already have, that I also bought from JCW.
3) A bigger one, not in the printed catalog, that has a big red rubber grip, part of which makes it more unlikely that you will hit your hand with the hammer. It also comes with 8 bits, 2phillips, 2 slot, and both short and 2 inches long. The long ones are great. I didn't think I would like the driver especially however, but I do.
I also bought at harbor freight a set of 4 impact driver extension bars, 4 different lengths.
All this was still not enough for the right side, I think, and I ended up heating the side of the case where the threads are, with a propane torch. The Klymer manual says not to do this for 3 reasons. The only one I remember at the moment is not to lose temper, but is there such a thing as tempered aluminum? Anyhow, I don't think I heated anything much more than it would be if the engine were running, and it made it easier to get the screws out.
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mm spake thus:

I think the word is "seize". And yes, you can use a thin coat of grease on screws to make them easier to get out later.
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Alumslip or coppaslip from the Moly company are best.
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You should use the correct product for the application, especially for high temperature conditions

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On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:46:34 -0400, "RBM" <rbm2(remove

I have some graphite powder around somewhere (well it should be in the top left hand drawer of the work bench), but I've never heard about copper or nickle powder.
I thought I would just use what they sell for spark plugs in the auto parts store. It's grey and creamy, and in the case of what they pushed on me when I bought plugs, it was in a foil bag about the size of a sugar bag at a coffee shop. Good to use?

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What you want is either the nickle or copper cream, not powder. It usually comes in a container similiar to that of PVC glue. One thing to remember when using this product is it takes half as much as you think you need. All you are doing is lightly covering the threads. If you are particular about your fingers and skin, use gloves because it is very difficult to remove from your skin. The particular brand that I like to use is actually called "never seize" and comes in a grey container. mm wrote:

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mm wrote:

Ideal.
Also screws going into aluminum get tightened to approx. 25 ft. lbs.
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mm,
Anti-seize is a wonderfull product and does work as advertised. I have been using it for many years on many different applications and have never had an issue with anything backing out. As long as you followe the proper torque specs for what you are doing the screws, nuts and bolts will stay where they are supposed to and you will find them much much easier to remove next time. I have used it on everything from twin Cat 3508 engines, deisel generators, plumbing parts, lawn mowers and yes, even motorcycles. Do not use grease in high tem locations as it can make a terrible mess and you will find that once it is heated it doesn't help at all with removal, just gets your tools messy. And also, with heating your transmission and engine covers with a torch, be very carefull doing this. As long as there is no discoloration, you should be fine. If you have more issues with other bolts and are planning on taking the motor out, you can put it in a large black garbage bag or wrap it in plastic and the spray every nut, bolt and screw with a good coat of penetrating lube. They make several different brands with several different prices. It's worth the extra money and time in the long run. After you spray everything down, wrap it up and let it sit for a couple days. You'll find that parts come apart much easier. Good luck, hope you get that classic back on two wheels soon. mm wrote:

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I hadn't heard of such a problem. It's just that I wondered why the stuff wasn't recommended more often, especially considering how hard it has been to get these screws out, the right and left crankcase covers, as well as things that are attached to the cover, the oil filter cover, and the ignition point cover. (interestingly, the exhaust pipe came off easily, even though it gets much hotter. I guess that is because both the stud and the nut are steel.)
So I figured the opposite problem of not coming loose when you try to unscrew it, is coming loose when you're not trying.

I'll have to look again if I have torque specifications even for the cover screws.

Definitely no discoloration, not while I was doing it** and not after it cooled. **I moved the torch around and could see the heated parts. Nothing glowed red either. :)

I really really don't want to take the engine out**, but I'll keep this in mind if I do. I want to go back and say that I did use penetrating oil on the screws too, starting a day in advance, but I still needed the impact driver in most cases, and the torch in more than half of those.
The penetrating oil didn't do any good I think, in the case of the three 50 or 55mm screws because the threads are so far from the screw heads.

Thanks.
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mm,
Anti-seize is a wonderfull product and does work as advertised. I have been using it for many years on many different applications and have never had an issue with anything backing out. As long as you followe the proper torque specs for what you are doing the screws, nuts and bolts will stay where they are supposed to and you will find them much much easier to remove next time. I have used it on everything from twin Cat 3508 engines, deisel generators, plumbing parts, lawn mowers and yes, even motorcycles. Do not use grease in high tem locations as it can make a terrible mess and you will find that once it is heated it doesn't help at all with removal, just gets your tools messy. And also, with heating your transmission and engine covers with a torch, be very carefull doing this. As long as there is no discoloration, you should be fine. If you have more issues with other bolts and are planning on taking the motor out, you can put it in a large black garbage bag or wrap it in plastic and the spray every nut, bolt and screw with a good coat of penetrating lube. They make several different brands with several different prices. It's worth the extra money and time in the long run. After you spray everything down, wrap it up and let it sit for a couple days. You'll find that parts come apart much easier. Good luck, hope you get that classic back on two wheels soon. mm wrote:

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That'll work. Another option is stainless steel screws -- putting aluminum and carbon steel together causes the steel to corrode if it gets the least bit damp (even humidity is enough), but stainless steel won't have that problem.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

Don't use stainless in any application where strength is critical (head bolts, suspension bolts, etc.) as 304 stainless is not as strong as a grade 5 fastener. Also any stainless screw will require anti-seize on the threads to prevent galling. this is not to say that stainless is bad however, lots of bolts on my '55 Stude have been replaced with stainless - just not critical ones as I described above.
nate
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Obviously strength is not critical in the areas where the OP is having a problem: the screws are going into aluminum. *Any* steel fastener, stainless or not, is stronger than aluminum, and if there's going to be a mechanical failure, it won't be in the steel.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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A quick lesson... The thread strength could be stronger than the "twist off" strength of any bolt you put in there... It all depends on how many threads you catch, whether the thread was cut or roll tapped, and some other (useless?) information to most folks...
Imagine you have a threaded (tapped) hole that is 1/4" deep with a 3/4" stainless bolt. You will likely strip the threads out before you break the bolt... Not make the hole 3" deep and fully threaded... The bolt will snap if tightened too much before the sum "shear point" of the threads is reached...
Stainless should be fine to use, but it brings a lot of problems along with it and I totally agree with another poster who said not to use it where strength is needed.
If you need strength, go with grade 5 black oxide. It's ugly, but rust somewhat resistant.
Want to learn more? http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/stripping.htm
http://dodgeram.org/tech/specs/bolts/SAE_bolt_strength.html
http://www.guhring.com/downloads/GUHRING_Tap_Compass_Lo_Res.pdf
http://www.autodrill.com (My site)
http://www.multi-drill.com (My site again - with drilling and some tapping reference tools)
Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R
Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ? http://tinyurl.com/5apkg http://www.youthelate.com
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Bad form to reply to one's own post, but note that the 3" depth was supposed to be 13" depth.... Even at 3", the threads might shear off before the bolt broke - especially in aluminum.
Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R
Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ? http://tinyurl.com/5apkg http://www.youthelate.com
Help Cure Cancer: http://yunx.com/UDvroc.htm
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My own experience of using stainless bolts is that they loosen under vibration more readily than the regular steel ones.
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Stainless won't gall on aluminum. aluminum may gall on stainless though. :)
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Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

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mm wrote:

Yes, aluminum has different "tempers"...if you warm it with a torch, you will be fine, don't get it smoking hot....it melts at 1200 degrees F.
DON'T use grease as an "anti-seize" compound, it will harden oe even bake in place and you'll have a mess.
You can buy a lifetime supply of anti-seize for 5-6 dollars.
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Tbanks a lot to all you guys. I have a lot to think about and remember. I'm glad I asked before I was finished. So I only have about 10 screws to back out (one by one?) and put on something, and replace.
I forgot to say that I don't want to have to take the engine off, but I gather some of the parts of the kick starter are deep in the engine and the bottom has to be removed from the top to replace a spring or whatever. That would require removing the engine. I'll do it if I have to, but if it will start with the starter motor, or if maybe getting the thing hot for a while will free something up, that will be good enough for me.
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