On 5/21/2013 11:31 AM, email@example.com wrote:
It was a little over 20 years ago that I saw my first and only tornado
here in Delaware. My son was driving on the road with me and we looked
to see a scene out of the Wizard of Oz taking place only a few hundred
yards from us of a tornado taking out a school gym.
Son asked what to do and I said, "Floor it." Tornado was coming at us
but we avoided it. Besides the school gym, only a mile from where I
live, there were 6 houses made uninhabitable. Fortunately no one was
hurt. Tornado was pretty narrow in that houses damaged that I saw were
not even next to each other.
I have yet to see anyone in the media talking about what
could have been done to prevent at least some of the loss of life.
Within hours of the Newtown CT school shooting, all the pumdits,
politicians, etc were calling for more gun regulations, without any
evidence that what they were proposing would have made a
In the cases of tornados and schools, I don't think
any have true tornado shelters. I think most just rely on
some sections of the building being built stronger than
the rest? But, how smart is that in an area that is prone
to frequent tornadoes? They apparently had plenty of
warning, but not true shelter to go to.
On 5/21/2013 1:24 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
They would need an actual shelter. I understand that there is no
construction that could hold up to a 200 mph wind. I'd probably get in
my basement and stand under house's steel beam.
You see these tornadoes on TV and think you could out run them, which
you can but in real life, during a storm they might get right on you.
We had a near tornado a couple of years ago. I looked out to dark sky
and saw a flutter of strange leaves coming in. The turbulence came near
the ground about a mile from here and brought down several trees in a
development. One house with two Cadillacs in garage was completely
destroyed. People were OK but Cadillacs destroyed. No one knew what was
coming. They did not call it a tornado because funnel did not hit the
ground but wind damage was bad.
I am surprised schools do not have a safe shelter. Probably will be a
lot more common in the future. They could also be a community shelter. A
school at least half-way north in MN was recently destroyed by a strong
tornado. The rebuilt school has a FEMA rated shelter.
You can build to protect from any wind speed you want. FEMA has provided
subsidies for shelter rooms good for 250 mph wind. A lot of shelter
rooms have been built. Some people whose houses were destroyed rode out
the tornado in shelter rooms. Some included neighbors. That must be one
reason the death toll was so low.
Low down in a corner would likely be safer. NWS recommends under
workbenches. There are few, if any, basements in Moore. Reports said
only 31% of US houses have basements. If there is no basement, shelter
rooms can be built on the first floor and aren't that expensive for a
new house. Small rooms underground are also built.
You want to drive at right angles to the path. With 15-40 minutes
advance warning, and knowing the approximate path, driving out is
practical and in this case safer than staying. One person drove home
from work, picked up the family, and drove away. The tornado wound up a
few blocks away from his house. He was an emergency responder, drove
home, and walked to one of the destroyed schools.
They do now; drove thru OKC yesterday on way back home from TN and
listened to much local radio coverage on way thru...they said that
particular school was built in 70s and was typical of the time which
would be just light industrial-type construction of block walls w/
welded roof trusses.
TA&M has done a bunch of work on safe room construction and has quite a
bit of online footage of test projectile shots, etc., ... We did some
support work at ORNL for the defense facilities at the DOE plants in Oak
Ridge while there to protect nuclear processing facilities there. Many
of the production buildings there are still from Manhattan project days
or the Cold War buildup in the 50s and were, of course, built either as
"temporary" structures in the beginning or to simply meet the present
need in the 50s. So, 60-70 yr later they're still hollow clay tile
infill walls between columns on as much as 20-ft spacing and 20 to 60 ft
tall. Needless to say, they wouldn't take much--fortunately likelihood
of large tornadoes there is very low altho there were several small ones
within a couple of miles of the facilities during our 25 years there so
like almost everywhere in the US they're not unknown...
Anyway, as noted elsewhere it's possible to do quite a lot w/ only a
relatively small amount of effort--it's just that a tuabafor wall w/
some sheathing and a layer of sheetrock is essentially invisible to a
missile approaching at 100+ mph w/ a small cross section in the forward
direction (another tubafor, iow).
In the basement, that's probably better agreed, altho against the
approaching-direction wall under a solid beam would be pretty good _if_
the beam support is secure. If it's on a block wall that's above grade
maybe "not so much". One of the big problems in conventional basements
for storm cellars is they're not designed for egress in the aftermath.
Don't know about Moore, specifically, how it was generally developed.
If much of it was tract housing wouldn't be surprising as they were
generally built as slab for low initial cost. In local town in SW KS
generally homes are and have been built w/ basements precisely for that
reason since very early on--the farmhouse we're in was built by g-father
and started in 1915 within the year after homesteaded the home place and
they lived in the basement after it was roofed over while finishing the
rest. Some tract houses built in the late 50s thru early 70s in town
were built on slabs, however, owing to them being built during the early
gas expansion phase when quick 'n cheap was more important than other
Generally, in conventional housing basements are better if below grade
and not just half-depth so still can collapse a block wall, say on top
of you. In an EF5 like Moore, above ground w/ conventional construction
there's a pretty good chance it'll just level it to the main floor.
That's what happened in Greensburg, KS, a few years ago, and what
appeared in what footage I've seen to be the case in quite a few cases
There are a fair number of just storm cellars on some of those. All the
schools have been at least modified to have solid walls added as infill
where were initially just block walls and roofs over those areas also
On 5/22/2013 1:33 PM, email@example.com wrote:
Maybe, but certainly don't think that's a real generalization solid
generalization. Where we were in VA that it was such a pita to deal w/
the water problems w/ basements was probably the #2 reason; the most
common was the excavation cost of there being so much rock in so many
places it was simply cost-prohibitive. OTOH, in TN it was pretty common
in current construction even though a lot of limestone 'cuz it was
pretty easy digging even that deep despite it and water generally wasn't
OTOH, in much of FL and in TX where grandparents are it's all
water-table--it's only a few feet at most to standing water in dry
weather and when it's wet need rocks to hold it in the ground to keep
from floating it away... :)
Had a rental house in VA (Lynchburg, actually) that was full basement on
level lot. When it got wet in rainy season, water came thru the slab
floor in every minute crack and one could hear the floor flex from the
pressure. I was right young pup back then and having grown up in dry
country and not ever experienced such a phenomenon plugged and caulked
all the places after one episode w/ wet-setting patching. The next time
it rained for a week it did actually crack the slab in new places as
well as reopening some of the existing simply from the static head of
water higher than the floor level all around the house. Pretty amazing
it was... :)
In the end, I think a big thing is whether it just becomes more-or-less
standard practice in an area and whether that happens is generally
related to all the above factors and what's gone before in the area...
My observation in some of the ones done in KS is that they've made whole
large sections into shelters at such price tags when a smaller area of
adequate size for the population of the school could have been done for
Sometimes, however, they do have a dual purpose of serving as shelter
for surrounding neighborhoods as well, not just the school itself. A
lot depends on the individual locality situation, obviously.
And, of course, the point about what will/won't pass a bond issue vote
is very dependent on the timing wrt to such events altho Moore and the
OKC area particularly has had such a history one would think it would be
a pretty easy sell.
Greensburg, KS, was wiped out almost entirely May 4, 2007. It was
estimated at 1.7 mi in width while the town was barely 2 and it made
almost a bullseye hit. Only a little towards the easternmost end of
town was relatively unscathed. It's track length was also in the 22-23
mi range, very similar to Moore. Interestingly, it was the first EF5
after the enhanced Fujita scale was introduced and the first of the F5
classification since the May 3, 1999, in Moore.
I drove up to Greensburg early that next morning (it's only about 100
mi) and came up a county road from the south that wasn't yet roadblocked
and got into town and spent most of the day helping folks gather up
enough personal belongings out of the rubble to get them through a few
days. Somewhat like this outbreak in OK this past weekend, it also
followed up there w/ a lot of rain the next several days to make things
more of a pita for early cleanup efforts.
A fine older gentleman from our local church was injured severely in it
in his daughter's home when a beam fell and hit him and he unfortunately
didn't make it, passing away in hospital in Dodge a week or so later.
And, on the other end, out here in the western quarter of the state
we're just drying up and blowin' away in sustained D4 drought classified
as "Exceptional" and the most severe category they keep. We've not had
a good t-storm and real relief since spring of 2011--just a few spotty
showers here and there. All had here over the weekend was just enough
sprinkles could see fresh tracks in the driveway when we got back home
But, it rained on us every day we were gone from E OK, AR, TN, going and
then at least some every day in TN and drove in heavy rain from Forrest,
AR until almost Shawnee, OK, yesterday before finally cleared it. The
initial front went thru Forrest about midnight w/ pretty good t-storm
but nothing severe and then the second wave hit there just as we were
getting on the road yesterday morning. Dodged cells and heavy downpours
to steady rain all the way except for a twenty minute stretch just
before Little Rock. Kept wishing (and still do) that could drag it home
The newer schools have storm shelters. OK is in the process of adding
shelters to the older schools, like the one that was flattened. These
things don't happen overnight.
One woman was just saying that she'd built a storm cellar in her
garage floor within the last year. She said that she was going to
rebuild and that the shelter was going to be the centerpiece of her
It's rare that we get them, but we've even had tornados as far north as
Winnipeg. One tornado in 2007 was classified an F5 because it tore two
large houses off their foundations and threw them around.
That one was in the town of Elie (pronounced "ee lie") which is west of
'2007 Elie, Manitoba tornado - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
A few years ago there was a tornado in a campground in Alberta that
killed some campers.
When I was a kid, we had a super strong wind here one day which I don't
know if it was actually a tornado or not. The only reason I remember it
was because I remember our teacher telling us that if we find ourselves
in a wind like that again, the best thing to do was to try and find a
ditch to lay in so that we were protected by the ground on each side of
Folks were heating with wood and coal
back then. Lots of carbon dioxide into
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
The worst tornado in the US was back in 1925. Killed 695.
Did global warming cause that too?
I wonder. Is the Obama economic depression due
to global warming?
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
The global warming alarmists blame everything on global warming.
All the storms like this have happened in the past. Build in a hundred
year flood plain like on the Jersey shore or in a tornado alley,
eventually the statistics will catch up with you.
Global warming, and it's more recent renames of "Climate Change" and
"Climate Disruption" is a dead horse that only fools continue to flog.
Five Reasons The Global Warming Scare Is Fading
Climate Hysteria: The unraveling of the global warming scare continues
thanks to several recent important pieces of science news.
The alarmists who have hyped fear for decades should be ashamed
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