I realize that this question could almost be written off as "duh, use common sense". However, I'm guessing that there are a number of warning signs that defy common sense, or at least "novice home buyer" sense that some seasoned folks would see right away. Maybe stuff that's a little less obvious that the gaping pit of death in the basement that is spewing the lost souls of the afterworld...
The reason I suspect this is because I've done a fair bit of automobile repair and I know what to look for, I know what 'coverups' look like, and I know how to manipulate used cars to make them rear their ugly secrets. I expect houses to harbour tons of monsters as well.
The Missus and I are first-time home buyers, and we have our first round of open houses and showings this weekend. I would appreciate any tips of things to look for and how to gauge whether it's something "minor and can be fixed when you get around to it" or "perhaps more pressing/not DIY". I realize that *every* house is a fixer-upper to some degree, and that's fine.
Any tips are greatly appreciated- about any aspect of buying a house for the first time. When we do buy a house I'll invite you all to the BBQ next spring ;-).
Agreed on the inspection. I'm all for that. Prices for inspection vary but we've got an inspector lined up who is recommended to us from many good sources. She's not the cheapest but she's one of the best. You all might remember my fiasco a few months ago with the 100-year old farmhouse (seller is a psychopath, but that's another story). We had that house inspected and I have no qualms laying out another $350 to have it done again.
The houses we're looking at are all over the map agewise, but mostly fall in the 70-30 year old mark. It's just what happens to be available here (midwest). $135K is our max budget, and there appear to be some decent, if not 'slightly cosmetically challenged' homes, along with a few that look like they have been completely refurbished top to bottom.
Duane sez:
Yeah, unfortunately the old farmhouse with the 3 acres is what she really wants. It was a nice place, but I stil think that walking away from that one is best. Heartwrenching. These other houses are in town, no acreage and it feels like she's 'settling' for them but unfortunately I don't think that a farmette is within our means atm. Maybe in 5 to 7 years.
I should probably also add that this won't be "the house" if you know what I mean. The farmette life is what we ultimately want to get into, so this house is merely a stepping stone. Buy it, fix it, make it beautiful, live in it for a while and put it on the market. Wrong attitude? probably not.
We're specifically looking at 3 bedroom houses, around 1600sq ft. No plans for kids (unless a couple of big goofy dogs count) but we've both got massive amounts of hobbies and would like to have a room or two to dedicate to them.
I'm prepared for the "sweat equity" part. I haven't done a lot of home repair type things, but there's no better way to learn than by studying and doing. A house with 100 minor things to fix would probably prep me for the farm later, i suppose, and by that time I'll have enough tools and skill where I (hopefully) won't get in over my head.
Depends some on what you're looking at---are you considering houses of any age or restricting to old/new somewhere in between?
For a realtor walk-through, you'll be essentially evaluating whether you want to consider this one or not for further detailed evaluation. I would strongly recommend if you're not particularly familiar w/ such details to hire an independent inpector before making an offer.
What you can see is obvious things like wavy roofs indicating possible problems, signs of water running down sides of chimneys, soffets, etc., cracked foundations/walls indicative of drainage/foundation issues perhaps, windows/doors sagging/binding. Having a marble or similar in your pocket to drop on hard floors to indicate level is useful particularly in older homes.
Obviously, signs of homeowner patched up wiring and/or plumbing are warning signs as are extension cords, etc.
If at all possible look in attic crawl spaces for verificaion of insulation, etc. Many won't want to do this on first showing so may need to either blow it off or use first impression go/no go screening and return if still on the cut list.
That's just a starting point...mostly keep your eyes open looking at details and let swmbo worry about whether she "likes it"... :)
This house was actually a similar thing, but perhaps a little better yet. The sellers bought it, gutted it, replaced all the wiring and plumbing up to code in 1984 (or 1996- they kept changing their story of when they bought it). It had a stone foundation also, but it seemed alright. It did need some work done on the exterior- it had brand new windows in it, but the wooden windowframes weren't replaced (and were rotten), allowing water to get behind the stone exterior and cause cracking. Fixable, but probably not a first-time DIY project. Also needed some planing of the yard to get water to stop running into the basement, there was an addition on the house that was settling in one end and needed to be jacked up and refooted. It had a whole host of other minor issues but nothing I wasn't comfortable trying a stab at myself.
Beautiful property in Rural Amish Country. Had a barn and a shed. Seller accepted our offer for X amount of land (which had to be approved by the local Red Tape) and a set price, but wasn't motivated to do her part to add the land, kept saying "let's close first and add the land later". Kept trying to create all sorts of handshake deals outside of the contract, refused to amend the contract, ordered services for the property and insisted we pay for them prior to closing. Initially downright refused a home inspection, but later said it would be OK but regardless we can't back out of the contract (another handshake deal). I was firm on that and she finally relented. The house had nothing to hide that I didn't already know. I would have still bought it.
But for the most part, the seller basically broke all the rules and was using nothing but Sucker Sam's Used Car Pushy Sales Tactics 101 to try to force the deal. We had to involve an attorney to explain to her that she blew it and she ought to return the Earnest $ right away.
Unfortunately, now that it's done and over with and everything is back as it was, the seller keeps giving us "updates" such as "the land has been added now! it just needs approval through....." "it was a beautiful day on the farm today- all the trees changing colors, lots of deer and geese and ducks" etc. She's trying to play the heartstrings but I don't want to deal with her anymore, and she would own all the land around it including an easement for a well onto that property. It's very sad because it was such a beautiful place. Calendar beautiful, no less.
I don't know what sort of timeframe, but I do plan on doing some flipping. Maybe not as hardcore as some folks might but who knows. Essentially I want to set us up so that we can buy a beautiful farmette like the one described above but with more land and no hassle or bullshit. I have a slightly better grasp of the big pic vs. the missus but I'm still keeping an eye out for resaleability in houses.
Btw, these houses (the current crop) are in small towns each about
20-30 minutes east and north east of Madison WI. Hopefully that's a good place to buy low and sell high later.
Seems that all the home construction is happening in West Madison (the $350K McMansion subdivisions and condos) but all the warehouse/industrial construction is happening in East Madison. They say that home values are high where there is jobs, so hopefully that will drive up the value of the houses in these little towns in the east when they start getting encroached.
"... I would strongly recommend if you're not particularly familiar w/ such details to hire an independent inpector before making an offer." :)
It won't be a guarantee, but a competent inspector can help, particularly the uninitiated. Just be sure it's someone not on payroll of the agent or a recommended lender although the latter is less of an issue than the former since they're both after looking out for themselves. In the case of the lender, they're simply wanting to feel comfortable they can get equity back out w/ reasonable confidence which could be a big hit for the buyer. The agent otoh, is trying make a sale and commission.
I can relate...while in VA we looked at an early 19th century farmhouse on which was situated within eyeshot of Blue Ridge on remarkably level land (for there) and all that one could desire except...it had been completely done over by the existing occupants and was on the surface just beautiful. Problem was, they had done all the cosmetic stuff, probably spending $50k (in mid 70's $$) but hadn't done anything to repair the failing handlaid stone foundation which was falling down, nor the under girding beams which were rotting and propped up w/ a mishmash of cinder block and sawed off tree limbs, the chimneys which leaned like the tower of Pisa and were separating from the walls, ...
If one could have gotten it at the start for what they had, it could have been a great place, but all their work, for the most part, would have to be torn out and then redone to fix the fundamentals...
I still rue not having that particular location, however, nearly 40 years later... :)
There was another house even older that was a real mansion/plantation house but the owner was farming the land and had split the house off onto a tiny corner that stopped about 10 ft outside the rear of the house and wouldn't consider selling even 10 A to go w/ a 3 story (including the full 9-ft ceiling basement w/ the original kitchens, etc.) house...I guess he eventually dumped it and it became a rental.. :(
I still take fact in that you typically won't *lose* in buying real estate (and you always have to live SOMEWHERE). I suppose that if some insinuated "housing bubble burst" is about to happen, then we still got into a house and still have a place to live, and it will still gain some value.
Of course, I've heard all sorts of ranting and raving about "bursting bubbles" but no real coherent predicition of when, or what that even means- will housing prices go up, down, what?
Unfortunately, I'm not an economics or real estate major. I hate to admit it but I really don't know what I'm talking about :eek:...
I just want my own kitchen again, and a workshop and a place to keep my beer cold. Also to be able to come home to the kind and beautiful missus every night.
My wife and I bought our first house with an unfinished basement, it was a newer home with little in need of repairs, the finishing of the basement let me work on my own time table, understand more about the finer points of home ownership/repair, and brought in a decent return on our labour when we sold 2.5 yrs later.
If your thinking of flipping this house in a few years, look for a place with an unfinished room or 2
I would only caution that interest rates _are_ going to rise and the present market climate is not going to last indefinitely. At some point there are a lot of folks presently thinking they can "flip" virtually anything going to have an unwelcome surprise. Not saying don't do something, just be prudent.
For what it's worth, when you find something you like and want to make an offer, add a clause about items that can't be checked this time of year. We bought our house last December with a closing date in April of this year. Had a home inspector ( at least that's what his card claims) check out the home end of January, because of snow around and on the house he couldn't check the roof , the exterior foundation, the grade, the deck and it's foundation etc,etc. One thing that couldn't be checked due to the cold weather was the central air conditioning. We moved in at the end of April and 6 weeks later had a heat wave ( it went form 21c to 33c overnight and lasted a week and a half) . when I tried the A/C there was no cooling, had it inspected and found out it had no refrigerant and was told due to the age of the unit , about 18 years old it, was not feasible to try and find the leak to repair it.We're still trying to settle that with the lawyers. If the vendor has nothing to hide or fear they shouldn't object to some sort of " ass covering".
Also don't take the vendor or the selling agent's word for anything. If it's important enough to ask it's important enough to write it down and have them sign off on it.
The first is true the last isn't necessarily so. I don't know what the markets are in the area you're in, but I think many metro areas are dangerously high at the present time.
If anyone knew _exactly_ when, they'd have the proverbial crystal ball.
The symptoms of concern are present--high demand, high prices rapidly escalating combined w/ rising interest rates exacerbated by (unprecedentedly) high energy costs which are _just_ beginning to be seen to have the rippling inflationary effect throughout the rest of the economy coupled w/ the obvious intent of the Federal Reserve to be sure to stay in front of that trend and to (imo) make all the intended rate hikes prior to Greenspan's actual retirement. A large number of current mortgages are of the variable interest type and those folks are going to see some significant jumps in their monthly payments. All of the above simply indicate its time to be cautious and to remember that real estate _doesn't always_ go up...
Choose the area w/ care (remember "location, location, location!"), don't buy cheapest or most expensive in a general neighborhood and remember that schools are important for most purchasers of 2-3 br houses of the size you're speaking of, so don't ignore that even though you don't intend to send the hounds... :)
Again, it's just a time to be prudent and just a little bit cautious imo...
If the house you are looking at was built in the 80's.... check the siding. Google 'masonite class action' for details on why this is important. (bottom line is masonite made and sold ALOT of bad siding in that decade).
Another thing: Don't trust the house inspector.
I bought a house that was built in '82, had it inspected as part of the process, and 6 months later discovered that the majority of the siding, and the studs behind it (on all sides of the house, primarily the north face) were rotten. The clues were all there for me to see....but when buying a house that you think is 'your dream house' your vision becomes blurred significantly.
Thanks for the masonite tip. I also learned about Federal Pacific electrical boxes from this ng. The last house we looked at was ok, but I notice that this one (the one my roommates just bought) has not one, but two FP panels in it- One is an old Fuse style from when the house was built in the 1950s, and then there's wiring going from there to another with breakers.
Fortunately I've seen enough things in this house to be wary of others (rotten cloth insulation on all the wiring, everything wired through 3 breakers, a substantial gas leak in the basement and a couple of floors that don't feel 'all too sturdy', along with a lack of fire/smoke/c0 detectors), assuming we can buy a house before this one kills me. When the washing machine is running all the lights in the place 'pulse' with it.
They're both pretty handy, and they knew what they were getting into when they bought it (or so they claim). It's coming around, but i guess my priorities of "what needs to be fixed NOW" are different than theirs. They're just tired of me bitching about the heavy gas smell in the house. Air fresheners fix that. Yup.
You might classify which houses are more suitable for solar house heating. People don't seem to put any premium on that yet, eg on which way a house faces, shading, age, existing heating system, and so on. An ideal house might
Have a long south wall (or SE or SW.)
With few windows on that south wall (so a sunspace won't block them.)
With the south wall facing the back yard, vs the road.
With no significant shading on the south wall.
With no significant other projecting features from the south wall, like decks, swimming pools, stairways, and so on, ie a "plain flat south wall."
With electric resistance forced-air heat, which is expensive to use, so the house would tend to sell for a lower price, altho it might also have more insulation than usual, to make up for the expensive fuel. Also, the non-recurring cost of electric heat is low compared to other systems, and that tends to lower the price of such a house. And forced-air can be more suitable for sunspace heating than hydronic systems, eg baseboard radiators or hydronic floors.
Recently built, with lots of insulation and airtightness. An "Energy Star" house with a blower door test might be a good candidate...
I'm an old-enough old fart to recall times when things weren't so rosy. The oil bubble burst in the 80s in Midland, TX comes especially close to home as it took my brother down w/ it and he was just the new "vitinary" in town at a time when the cheapest thing they could find was nearly $300k. Everybody thought it would go on and that would sell for $400k in less than a year, but instead it sold under repo after they were forced to default for
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