Load center replacement

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insurance companies dont look at it this way, far too many people overfuse, so as to prevent blown fuses.
so based on this insurance does not like fuses.
apparently few people change breakers to higher current ones.........
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On 11/8/2011 8:25 PM, bob haller wrote:

Cite.
Your FUD is that K&T is old. Do OLD breakers still work mechanically? Corrosion? What can happen to a fuse? I agree with Evan. So does clare.
But that is irrelevant.
As already stated, my State Farm agent said 100A fused service are not likely a problem. (Insurance companies are likely to want at least a 100A service - fused or CB.)
From clare "Well, I work every morning at a general insurance brokerage office. A REAL one, not a state-farm office. No problem with fuse panel (with inspection certificate )"
Your FUD about fuses is just your fetish. There is no evidence it is shared by any insurance companies.
In this thread you have got wrong: Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance. you can't get insurance for fuses you can never get insurance for K&T you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe) there are no boxes with K&T if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade" homes with K&T can't be insulated
--
bud--

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That's bullshit if I have ever heard it...
Just amongst the friends and family I know personally I have seen too small a size wire used with too big a circuit breaker because most people don't know what they are doing with electrical wiring...
I.E.:
A #14 wire run to power a single outlet but it has a 20-amp breaker
(The total length of the run of the wire is important in determining wire size but so is the rating of the overcurrent protection)
Also, you might have a point about over fusing, however, used properly you can't screw the wrong type of fuse into a socket which has one of those reducer rings inside it to restrict it for a higher rated fuse... That is why the idea for tamper proof fuses came about...
But in reality there isn't much from stopping a homeowner from pulling the fuse block and screwing in a penny behind the fuse, is there ?
Just like there are only 4 to 6 cover plate screws which serve as a warning to most homeowners not to tamper with their load centers if they don't know what they are doing...
Hey, why should they buy that other bundle of wire which costs more but is the correct one to be used when this one here is cheaper ? Because they don't know any better...
~~ Evan
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thats pretty easy to catch on inspection, either replace wire with 12 gauge, or put in 15 amp breaker and 15 amp outlet.
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The whole point Bob, is that homeowners doing a project on their own don't pull permits and the installation never gets inspected again by someone who knows what they are doing until an electricians pulls a permit to do a job that would be inspected -- most small and minor jobs where a permit is allowed to be pulled after the fact never get inspected at all...
~~ Evan
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@Bob:
I have never seen a home inspector strip wires or pull apart functioning electrical equipment BECAUSE a home inspector is NOT a licensed electrician... Nor have I ever seen a home inspector measure wire size ever...
A home inspector is looking for things that are clearly and openly wrong, like wiring being run improperly in basements which could be used by idiots to hang stuff from... Or junction boxes without cover plates... Or load panels that have no markings to indicate which breakers serve which areas of the home...
They open up the cover on a panel and judge it visually... If it looks like a mess, they document... If things look loose or improperly attached, they document...
The home inspection company will send out an actual licensed electrician in that jurisdiction who will have the final word on any sort of "deficiencies" noted by the home inspector who isn't licensed in that trade...
~~ Evan
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I just have to say this here Bob...
LOL... At all of your resale issue crap...
Foreclosed homes sell for pennies on the dollar, cash sale, as is, no warranties expressed nor implied, buyer beware... That means the bank is not liable for any liens or back taxes or anything else they were not aware of that were attached to the property -- buyer really needs to do "due diligence" which is often overlooked...
What do you think you are getting when you buy a $350k home for $90k cash...
The few "normal" home sales that would be disrupted by the issues you raise are so small in number that statistically your concerns become irrelevant...
More people are disqualified from the ability to buy a home because of the stricter standards on loaning money these days than are ever bumped out of a sale because of any sort of wiring issue in a house...
~~ Evan
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wrote:

In my experience most home inspectors are half blind and ignorant.

They miss the big stuff and catch things like cracked wallplates

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For many years I spent a lot of time at the westinghouse circuit breaker plant in beaver pa.
a fascinating place, i became a kinda employee or one of the guys. I was there for tests that rocked the building they made everything from high voltage distribution stuff to home main breakers.
heck they offered me a job too, no interview needed. they said we know you your hired, just drop application at reception, when do you want to start? i declined the offer, which turned out a good decision, 2 years later they had massive layoffs, everyone with less than 20 years was let go:(
breakers are all designed to fail trip early, that is they become more sensitive over time.....
if you have a breaker that trips a lot just try replacing it, the circuit may be fine, the breaker is likely at fault.
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LOL...
Bob, a breaker which is exposed to continuous (tiny) overcurrent situations is a lot more likely to simply deform inside and fail in the circuit CLOSED position...
Especially the older the breaker gets and even more likely in adverse environmental conditions... (High Humidity, High Heat)
I take it you have never seen the results of failed circuit breakers in the form of melty/welded/destroyed bus bars inside a breaker panel... Those sort of situations are just as likely to cause a fire as an improperly sized fuse... That is why thermographic surveys of circuit breaker panels under load are done in larger buildings to assess the heat conditions present in the panels and determine when they should be replaced or upgraded...
Fuses blow out and won't allow an unskilled/incompetent person to keep resetting them even when an overload condition is still present in the circuit until the problem has been resolved... People stop trying to replace fuses and call an electrician after the 2nd blows out immediately after screwing it in...
~~ Evan
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as i statred before breakers are designed to fail, by tripping at lower currents.......
if many truly never tripped the lawsuits would put the company out of business ,,,,,, oh wait that already happened to FPE
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@Bob:
Really ?
Most any product I have ever purchased must be used PROPERLY for any sort of liability to attach to the manufacturer...
A circuit breaker being used under a tiny amount of overload constantly is not being used properly (think improperly tightened electrical connections or a high resistance short to ground) because the wiring does not conform to "best practices" within the trade and has not been maintained properly...
You can't blame the manufacturer for something being used outside of its tested limits or that was inaccurately selected or installed by the homeowner... All of the liability rests with the homeowner in that situation...
~~ Evan
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On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:18:35 -0800 (PST), Evan

Correct. A branch circuit can not be DESIGNED to run at more than 80% of the protection device rating, by code.

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https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=gw#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=webhp&source=hp&q=knob+and+tube+wiring+safety+hazards&pbx=1&oq=knob+and+tube+wiring+safety&aq=1v&aqi=g1g-v1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=0l0l1l8120l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&fp=1&biw=1134&bih=601&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&cad=b
bud ignores the over 18,000 google hits on this subject......
He lives in a delusional world, where everything is fine
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wrote:

And Square D QO breakers have been known to fail the same way - trip the 100 amp main before the 15A QO trips.
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bud is this enough or would you like more pastes and links about fuse boxes and K&T and not being able to obtain homowners insurance.....
are you convinced?
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On 11/8/2011 1:50 PM, bob haller wrote:

No source.
No context.
Quoted by someone with a fetish.
Nope
In this thread you have got wrong: Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance. you can't get insurance for fuses you can never get insurance for K&T you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe) there are no boxes with K&T if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade" homes with K&T can't be insulated
--
bud--

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from MSN money.....
Knob and tube? Time to rewire Knob-and-tube wiring was the main method of electrical wiring from the 1880s through the 1930s, lasting even into the 1950s. Back then, a single outlet per room was common, and the average household's few appliances didn't collectively suck much power.
What concerns insurers is the strain that today's power-hungry appliances place on older wiring. Knob-and-tube wiring typically doesn't have a ground, and you're not supposed to use modern three- hole outlets unless the ground is functional.
Problems getting homeowners insurance Fuse boxes, which often accompanied older wiring, pose another problem. As a safety feature, the fuses have thin slivers of metal designed to "blow" when too much electricity courses through them, shutting off power. But homeowners occasionally try to beat the system and keep the electricity flowing by sticking pennies, which are much thicker, into the fuse sockets. Doing so makes the wiring inside a house's walls hot -- so hot that the house could catch fire.
Good luck convincing an insurance agent that you would never try this.
Some regular carriers will cover you without making you tear out all your knob-and-tube wiring. They can live with it running between a wall switch and overhead lights, assuming you've otherwise rewired with grounded outlets for power-hungry appliances such as microwave ovens, TVs and hair dryers.
The bad news: Paying for those upgrades, plus a new circuit breaker, costs thousands of dollars. So "affordable" insurance doesn't necessarily come cheap.
Bottom line: Most carriers consider extensive knob-and-tube wiring a fire hazard and won't insure a house that has it
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On 11/10/2011 9:22 AM, bob haller wrote:

Still no source link
Still no context.
Quoted by someone with a fetish.
In this thread you have got wrong: Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance. you can't get insurance for fuses you can never get insurance for K&T you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe) there are no boxes with K&T if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade" homes with K&T can't be insulated "posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable"
--
bud--

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Electrical distribution fuse panels, as shown in Figure 2 have become obsolete and in many jurisdictions a homeowner cannot get home insurance if they have an old style fuse panel installed.
Figure 2 - House fuse panel
Although a properly installed fuse panel is safe, insurance companies see the convenience to over size the fuse on a circuit as a potential hazard.
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