Load center replacement

They are NOT in the risk TAKING business. They are in the risk MANAGEMENT business.

Reply to
clare
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insurance avoids insuring bad risks. people with multiple DUIs, homes in poor condition, anything or anyone thats at greater risk than average. ' just look at health insurance surcharging policies of people with health troubles.

smokers pay significantly more for life insurance.

insurance companies have gotten much more risk adverse...... with the wild weather just look at their losses from extreme weather.........

like all business these days stockholders demand big profits......

and insurance looks to minimize their risks and payouts

Reply to
bob haller

Oh.

Reply to
HeyBub

Maybe you could go back and find out.

Where is your actuarial basis that K&T and fuses are more hazardous that a lot of other wiring.

*YOUR* link to a report from the "Pennsylvania Department of Community and Economic Development" says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard".

My State Farm agent says a 100A fused service isn't a problem and relatively small parentage of K&T is not likely a problem.

Clare said fuse panels weren't a problem.

Others have said they didn't have a problem with K&T.

None of that gets past your fetish screen.

You continue with FUD.

Reply to
bud--

YOUR* link to a report from the "Pennsylvania Department of Community

please show me some homes with 100 year old unaltered K&T. after 100 years or more most if not all homes have had wiring changes....

the worst part of K&T is there are no boxes and the wiring and connections are buried in walls and cant be looked at.......

open the wall to inspect makes it mandatory to upgrade the wiring.....

and few people today want homes that cant be insulated, and at the pittsburgh home show every insulating company refused to insulate a home with K&T stating their business insurance wouldnt allow it..I asked every vendor there......

Bud face facts K&T isnt as safe as modern wiring just like a 1950s vehicle isnt as safe in a accident as a new vehicle.

in a test wreck of a 1957 bel air and a 2009 malibu the malibu driver would of walked away while the bel air driver would of died from multiple causes.....

Reply to
bob haller

ultimately a homeowner attempting to sell will find out wether any perspective buyer can obtain homeowners insurance at the time of sale... if i a purcase aggrement all repairs must be done by licensed bonded insured contractor, that can run up costs dramatically/.

but has zero effect on me......

do tell besides K&T what other things last over a 100 years?

how many unaltered K&T installs are still around?

K&T around here typically has no boxes.

in a lifetime how many cars have you purchased? certinally a model T should be fine? why buy a new one, shouldnt it last forever?

Reply to
bob haller

Well, the VAST MAJORITY originally did not.Original K&T used a LOT of surface mounted switches, for example. Turn knob type in fact.

Many houses were modified as years went buy, with "modern" switches added - often including installation of boxes. A LOT of K&T was also "ring topology" - with both ends of easch conductor fastened together, so effectively the wire only carried approxemately half the load current. This in itself is not bad. But when changes are made to K&T wired homes, and additional circuits are added, it is not out of the ordinary for the ring circuit to be eliminated - and now the single wire is carrying the entire load - which is also significantly higher than the original load. An un-modified, original K&T wired home, with no additional insulation added, and no extra outlets installed, is AT LEAST as safe as a modern home, electrically. But they are EXTREMELY rare.

Much the same can be said of newer homes - including those with ALUMINUM wiring. Unmolested wiring is often safer tha "updated" wiring.

If buying a house I'd rather buy an unmolested, original, 1950's or

1960's house needing renovation than one that has been renovated several times and "updated" to make it more saleable.

The seller can save their money and agravation and just lower the price - then I can have whatever renovations and upgrades made, knowing what standard of work was done, and not having to tear out all the updates to fix the underpinnings that "supposedly" make it all work.

Reply to
clare

Seen WAY too many screwed up reno's. A lot of them done just to "update" a house for sale - where they would hae been FAR better just selling the house "as is", since ALL of the renovations had to be torn out and done over just to make the house liveable.

Reply to
clare

Here is a *shocking* idea for you then, buy a panel enclosure with no pre-punched knock outs in it and let the electrician make the right sized holes in it where he needs them... Those kind of panels are used in commercial applications all the time...

~~ Evan

Reply to
Evan

I have not seen K&T surface mount switches here.

I see no reason to believe that the "VAST MAJORITY" of K&T installations here did not have boxes.

Far as I know ring circuits were never used in the US. They are common in post WW2 UK, but are a code violation here.

It would help if local practice was not generalized to everywhere, particularly from Canada to the US. My comments on your service tried to make clear what I said was practice in the US. This is hallerb's major problem.

OMG - that is heresy to hallerb.

My mothers old house was "modified" and is much safer now than it was.

In a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding insulation around existing K&T wiring the head electrical inspector in Minneapolis said no record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them.

Reply to
bud--

AND they pay top price for a newly renovated home, which is mortgaged to the hilt AND they need to spend big money to fix the "unknown troubles" hidden by the "renovations"

Reply to
clare

Well, he's RIGHT that MOST houses with ORIGINAL K&T do NOT have boxes, and he's also correct - in MOST of North America that it is impossible to insure just about every house with K&T wiring.

He is also CORRECT that FULLY insulating a house with K&T wiring is a serious problem.

Reply to
clare

My father was an electrician here in Ontario Canada and did a lot of renovation, upgrade, and rural electrification work.

Of the houses he had to re-wire from K&T to "romex" in the seventies, the VAST majority had NO boxes, and surface mounted devices. The house we bought in 1957 was about half surface mount and half "push-on/push-off" mounted in the walls without boxes.

Reply to
clare

You are generalizing your experience, in Canada, to the universe.

That is not my experience here.

Cite.

A number of people at a.h.r have said they didn't have a problem.

Where is the actuarial data that K&T is more of a problem than other wiring.

Hallerb's source, the "Pennsylvania Department of Community and Economic Development", says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard".

Perhaps a more defensible statement, like you MAY have a problem getting insurance....

Cite.

The head electrical inspector here has said no record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them.

Hallerb's source, a state agency, in his state, insulates over K&T.

Where is your evidence?

Reply to
bud--

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Reply to
bob haller

this dates back 10 years ag0 about no insurance no home sale

bud is seriously out of date:(

Reply to
bob haller

As existing K&T wiring gets older, insurance companies may deny coverage due to a perception of increased risk.[6] Several companies will not write new homeowners policies at all unless all K&T wiring is replaced, or an electrician certifies that the wiring is in good condition. Also, many institutional lenders are unwilling to finance a home with limited ampacity (current carrying capacity) service (which, as noted above, often goes hand-in-hand with K&T wiring), unless the electrical service is upgraded

Reply to
bob haller

older home w/fuse panel and breaker box dilemna

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----- I have a home built in 1946 that has a 6 fuse panel with the description 35 amp 125/240 volts inside the housev that has 6- 30amp fuses in it. I also have a breaker box outside tied in under the meter that has 4 main groups of breakers ( 2 sets of 30/30) one set of 40/40 and one set of 60/60. Is this a problem? I am selling my home and an insurance agent for the buyer said his company wouldn't probably be able to write a policy because of the way the electric is set up. I am sure this panel was installed quite a few years ago because of the way the factory paper description on the inside lid is worn and discolored. Anyway, any suggestions why he would not write a policy? I have insurance now with no problem. We have seldom ever blown a fuse, and occasionally one of the 30/30 breakers trips, but that has only happened when I'm sure the circuit was definitely overloaded..... Thanks for your input. Incidently, the fuse box and breaker are approx. 4 feet from each other inside to outside of house, is it possible that I might have to have the fuse box eliminated and a larger breaker box installed? Is that possible without re-wiring the entire house? thanks in advance.

Reply to
bob haller

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce your home owner=92s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up, and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the house

Reply to
bob haller

bud is this enough or would you like more pastes and links about fuse boxes and K&T and not being able to obtain homowners insurance.....

are you convinced?

Reply to
bob haller

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