Lightning protection AND putting a receptacle on UPS

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Any protector that fails on the first transient was defective when installed. Grossly undersized protector is ineffective and overpriced. Any MOV that fails during a transient did not provide necessary protection. Just another fact that plug-in protector manufacturers hope you never learn since such unacceptable failures actually promotes their product among those who don't know what a protector should do.
Effective protectors perform their job so that you never knew a transient even existed.
Stubby wrote:

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Even effective and slower solutions used in the 1930s - Gas Discharge Tubes or GDTs - were more than fast enough. But that is time to shunt (connect) a destructive transient to earth. Nothing will disconnect fast enough nor wide enough to prevent damage. Disconnecting to stop or block a destructive transient is a myth that plug-in protector manufacturers don't discourage. Protection is about making a connection; not a disconnection.
bebo wrote:

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"no, a surge protector is not fast enough to stop lightning. we talking nanoseconds, like...under 5 nanoseconds and circuits are fried.
the arrestor is super fast,(like inside of 5 nanoseconds) it creates a bottleneck to regulate the flow. "
This is totally wrong. First, go look at a datasheet from any major manufacturer of whole house surge protectors. They clearly state that these devices provide lightning protection on the incoming power line. Second, the response time of any decent whole house surge protector is faster than the rise time of lightning, which is why they work. And finally a surge protector/arrestor does not create a bottleneck to regulate the flow. A surge protector provides a path to ground for the surge,when the voltage exceeds a maximum safe level.
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Trip Lite respond fast 0-1 nanosecond and have circuitry that indicates if it is operational , if its hit and doesnt work its fixed free. Sure its a one line of defence, you need many, starting with grounds outside, a mains panel surge and even seperate lightning supressor. Do all you can and it may do nothing as lightning can energise the air and damage everything or overload everything. I was in a house when lightning lit up the lights in the kitchen for a second. All you can do is try things and pray. I unplug alot of things when danger is near, ive been through 3 hits.
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Is it just a big zener diode?
i
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During a potentially destructive transient, the effective 'shunt mode' protector converts from an open switch to a conductive wire. Notice what a protector does. It does not stop, block, or absorb surges as the APC product hopes you will assume. The more conductive that 'wire' (the protector), then higher is its joules. But earth ground is the bottleneck - which is why a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Of course, the APC has no effective earthing. So they avoid the discussion - entirely. They hype only enough numbers that confuse - such as response time. Let's look at another of those numbers. How many joules in that APC? Why is it so woefully small?
The 'whole house' protector, installed free by the telco, must be low capacitance - so as to not degrade xDSL. Therefore it is equivalent to a low capacitance, bi-directional, zener diode. What does it connect to - to be effective? It also makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground. How effective is that telco protector? Only as effective as an earth ground provided by the homeowner.
Ignoramus10397 wrote:

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"a surge protector does not protect you from lightning what you want is a lightning arrestor surge protector only resolves mild surges from your local power company
and they do surge) "
That depends on what your definition of lightning protection is. Will a surge protector at the service panel protect all the electrical devices in the house from a direct strike hitting the house? Probably not. But that is not the typical case. More typical is lightning hitting some distance away, like a utility pole or wire somewhere down the street, sending a surge down the power line. And that a whole house surge protector will protect against.
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The only true protecction from lightning is to unplug your tv and other critical electronics during a thunderstorm.
Other places to inquire about lightning protection are rec.radio.shortwave
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Disconnection involves something very unreliable - humans. Effective protection is installed so that direct strikes don't cause damage. Newsgroups include rec.radio.amateur.antenna and alt.home.automation where those with technical knowledge and some with decades of professional experience post.
Those with knowledge (that is not always demonstrated in rec.radio.shortwave) will post as exampled: http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html

FDR wrote:

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I still stand by my statement. Connection to the grid introduces uncertainty. Also, a radio station may have many thousands of dollars of equipment and professional manpower. A home user will generally not want to do what a radio staion will do.

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wrote:

It is not practical to expect equipment to be disconnected during 100% of lightning storms.
i
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If the guy cares so much about his equipment he'll either a) watch the weather reports and disconnect if there's storms predicted. b) spend large amounts of money insuring that he has the proper equipment and expertise to realistically survive a direct strike.

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wrote:

I think that a good point has been made that we cannot expect to be able to achieve 100% protection against lightning.
That said, if I can achieve some "good" protection, at not too high a cost, I will be happy with that. Again, it is unrealistic to expect that I will constantly monitor weather and turn off equipment when not in use.
I brought home four APC 2200 UPSes yesterday (some floor standing and some rackmount), that cost me $58 total. I am definitely going to use one on the living room electronics receptacle, as I have not heard any worthwhile objections so far.
I will use another one to protect the furnace circuit.
i
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"I brought home four APC 2200 UPSes yesterday (some floor standing and some rackmount), that cost me $58 total. I am definitely going to use one on the living room electronics receptacle, as I have not heard any worthwhile objections so far. I will use another one to protect the furnace circuit. "
Then I guess you think what Joseph, W-Tom and I told you isn't worhwhile.
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wrote:

Maybe I do not remember correctly, but as far as I recall, objections centered either around the cost of the units (not relevant to me), or mentioned that it would not offer sufficient protection without other devices.
Even if that is true (not offering proper lightning protection), I still can use the UPSes for other benefits (continued power), along with other protection systems.
i
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"Even if that is true (not offering proper lightning protection), I still can use the UPSes for other benefits (continued power), along with other protection systems. "
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Instead of putting in simple effective protection by installing a whole house surge protector, you're gonna try to run a TV and a furnace off a UPS. Put those UPS's on Ebay and use the money for the whole house surge protector.
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wrote:

Well, perhaps I was unclear, but I think that a whole house surge protector is a great idea!
I just do not feel that a WHSP and use of UPSes is mutually exclusive.
I will probably sell one UPS, salvage parts from another UPS and keep two -- one for the furnace and network stuff in the furnace room, and one for the family room electronics receptacle.
In addition, yes, I will look for a whole house surge protector. Any suggestions?
i
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UPS is for maintaining power during a blackout or extreme brownout. Some (computer grade UPS) may output power so dirty (in battery backup mode) as to be a threat to small electric motors. Therefore many UPSes may not provide another number that should concern you: Total Harmonic Distortion or THD.
For better transient protection, enhance or expand the earthing system. For example, an AC controller (apparently) is not under an equipotential earth. It could be if part of a halo ground. From what I read, a transient entered the AC controller from earth, passed through AC electric and mains circuit breaker, then regained earth somewhere on another side of the building. An expanded earthing system would include the AC controller AND make an existing 'whole house' protector more effective.
No, one typically does not protect from all direct lightning strikes. But then a human may never see that so rare 200,000+ amp strike. If such strikes were common, then we would massively expand the household earthing system so that even 200,000+ strikes did not perform damage. Meanwhile, that is what commercial sites do to make their facilities protected from everything. A massive earthing system is for protection from the few; the rare and most powerful CG lightning.
Household earthing need only protect from well over 95% of all direct strikes.
If using plug-in protectors, remember these pictures when locating that protector: http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?pageU6&parentU4 http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf http://www.rbs2.com/fire.htm
Ignoramus 32515 wrote:

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APC 2200 UPS produces a sine wave. It has a surge energy rating of 880 joules. See
http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SU2200NET&CFID $72096&CFTOKENS038870
In comparison, the Intermatic whole house surge protector offers 1,200 joules of clamping protection. Not terribly much more than 880 joules of APC 2200, given a much bigger protection responsibility.
http://www.smarthome.com/4870.html

Can you clarify what you mean by this. I have decent ground, very close to the panel.

By AC controller, do you mean an Air Conditioning controller?
It seems that when I use UPSes, a whole house surge protector is more of those "peace of mind" items, in relation to stuff that is protected by UPSes. That's especially so since its clamping voltage is too high to protect electronics, anyway.
It has a role, to protect motors and electronics not on UPSes, but I find it dangerously close to oxygen free cables and other gobbledygook "peace of mind" items. I am hesitating to buy one. I may decide to do so, and will read more information.
What I am absolutely clear is that use of UPSes has numerous benefits and next to zero downsides.

I am not planning on using those, except for low value items. No sense to spend a lot of money to protect some $50 POS.
i

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Well lets see what this UPS outputs. It also claims to output a sine wave. Two 200 volt square wave with up to a 270 volt spike between those square waves. Yes, that is a sine wave - and a few other things also. But when selling to people who don't always demand numbers, then this UPS outputs a sine wave.
Again, what are the numbers for that sine wave. To get a better sine wave, that UPS costs what - $500.
Again, APC also outputs much propaganda to deceive by telling half truths. Again, what is the THD for that UPS? A number that should be there with so many other numbers.
800 joules is typically undersized. If they were providing accurate numbers, then they also said where each joules were connected between. This because no all 800 joules in a plug-in unit would be used in protection. This being different in a 'whole house' protector where all joules are used. Just anther reason why 'whole house' protectors have higher life expectancies.
To be equivalent to the Intermatic protector, the APC must be 3600 joules plus any other joules found on the telephone line or network cable protector. Don't for a minute think APC is a trustworthy company. They routinely forget to provide essential numbers. Its called lying by telling half truths.
But again, the numbers. What kind of sine wave was it? Modified sine wave? True value sine wave? They can invent expresssions - and still you have only a computer grade UPS that may even damage some small electric motors.
Ignoramus32515 wrote:

http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SU2200NET&CFID $72096&CFTOKENS038870
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