Legal question? ? ?

[Ray]

This is essentially a legal question -- if there are any lawyers out there on alt.home.repair

A

[Ray]

This is essentially a legal question -- if there are any lawyers out there on alt.home.repair

I live in a six-unit coop apartment. About a year ago we converted our furnace from oil to natural gas. This required installation of a new gas meter.

Almost at once it was evident that we were being significantly under-billed for our gas service. It also became clear that the gas company's meter readings on the bill did not correspond to those on the meter itself. Our billings were wildly erratic. For instance, the billing for January, one of the coldest months on record, was half the billing for December, which was a relatively warm month.

We called, and then wrote the gas company, and each time we were assured all was right. We have had at least six contacts with the gas company over this issue.

We estimate that our gas heating costs for 2009 came in about one-third of what we were expecting -- and budgeting.

So my question is, what if this situation continues for several years, and then the gas company discovers a reading error and hits us for a bill for thousands of dollars?

What is our legal obligation under such a scenario?

I'm guessing that as a practical matter, the issue would be resolved through negotiated settlement.

[Joe]

Not a legal answer, but are you sure that some of the erroneous readings aren't estimated readings (maybe every other month)? If they don't have usage history on your building, that may cause it. If it is an estimated usage, it should be noted on your bill.

[Kurt Ullman]

I would think the state agency that regulates the gas utility would be able to tell you about how this works.

[Andy]

Andy comments:

Try misc.legal.moderated Lots of lawyers there.....

[trader4]

There appears to be two potentially different issues. One is some months you don't use as much gas as you think you should. That could definitely be due to estimated billing, differences in how many days between meter reading, etc. I've seen bills where it is not necessarily obvious if it was estimated unless you look carefully.

The more troubling issue is that the meter readings never are the same as the actual meter. I don't know how you would know that unless you recorded the meter yourself every few days. And also that you say the yearly amount is 1/3, which sure would seem to indicate something is wrong.

It's possible they are not even reading the correct meter and have the wrong one tied to your account. That happened to me in a new condo. After several years, the neighbor had their gas shut off for non-payment. I came home to a cold house. When they installed the services, there are 4 located together and they had the lines/meters mixed up. In that case, the gas company went back to day 1, which was several years, and adjusted the bills. At least they adjusted mine, as I got a credit of several hundred bucks. Can't say for sure if they recovered that sum from the neighbors.

If you want to resolve it, I would call the gas company and have them send out someone to check the meter and go over this problem while someone knowledgable about the issue from your side is there. Take notes of the meeting, names, dates, photo of the meter reading, save the bills, etc. If they come after you 5 years from now, you could argue, perhaps successfully, that it's their fault and they have to eat it. Having good evidence would be key.

If you elect not to resolve it, then I would put some extra money into the reserves consistent with what you think you may have to pay someday. There is likely a statute of limitations in your state that covers how many years back they could go. There might also be utility regulations or consumer protection laws that cover it as well. But only a local lawyer is going to be able to give you those specifics.

[Ray]

There's no question that the meter readings differ consistently from the ones reported on the bill.

[Jeff The Drunk]

The Public Utilities Commission of your state is the regulatory agent, contact them.

[DT]

If you don't already, keep a log of the meter readings. Check your invoice to make sure the meter number that is being billed is the same number as your actual meter, not just the correct address.

[Red Green]

Andy wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Can't be much of lawyers if they're not getting paid.

[Ray]

Thanks for the detailed response. There's no question that the monthly meter readings as recorded on the bill differ significantly from those on the meter itself. We have kept records carefully on this.

We've contacted the gas company several times and are always advised that things seem correct from their point of view, although on the phone one guy did acknowledge that it was unusual that we at times used more gas in summer than in winter. (The water heater is also connected to our gas mater.)

Yes, we are accumulating a reserve in case they come back with a monster-bill.

[HeyBub]

There are two separate issues here:

1. You should continue to press for a sensible explanation. Use certified letters.

1. You used the gas, you are obligated to pay for it. You should escrow the anticipated amount somewhere so you'll be able to handle the possible result. A "mistake" in this billing will almost always be resolved in favor of the gas company under the principle of "unjust enrichment." That said, if you continue to tell them you think a mistake is being made and they continue to tell you all is okay, you can easily claim they merely lowered your bill because they're a bunch of swell fellows.

As a practical matter, you'e liable. If you don't pay, the gas company will shut off the gas. Your only recourse then is to get lawyers, writs, depositions by the barrow loads, hearings, witnesses, records, notaries public without number. a lot of "further affiant sayeth nots...", and experts involved.

[Ray]

We do keep a log.

One of the mysteries is that the number on the meter and on the bill coincide precisely. It's the readings that don't coincide. Ours are consistent -- the company's readings are wildly erratic, even chaotic.

[trader4]

OK, here's some more questions. Exactly how do they differ? Is it that they are just off by X amount one month Y another month, but overall what you see on the meter and the bill are at least tracking each other? Or are you saying that each month the readings grow further and further apart? Since you say the yearly bill is about

1/3 what you expected it to be, I would expect it's the latter? If so, then something is very wrong and I don't see how the gas company can just say everything is OK.

Also, how do you know what the meter actually reads on the day they say they read it? Is someone recording it daily? Are you sure you are reading the right meter? Does the meter # match the bill? Is there any other meter nearby that it could be crossed with? If there was any other meter around and if it was my own house, I'd shut off the valve at the meter and verify that the gas goes off at the furnace. In a 4 unit condo, you could do it, but need everyone home if there are gas appliances, water heaters etc that have pilot lights that need to be re-lit in the various units.

The fact that you use more gas some months in summer is particularly troubling. Heating water in a residential application is typically small compared to heating bills. In summer, my gas bill is usually less than $20 a month, while in winter, it can be 10X that. Of course it also depends on where you are located. My first suspicion would be that they somehow have your meter # crossed with some other account. In any case, with a situation this screwy they should be willing to send someone out and if no rational explanation can be determined, they should switch out the meter.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, Often gas co. uses estimated reading and once in a while meter is read and bill will be adjusted. They do that out at my cabin. At the end I end up paying what I owe or vice versa. Don't you have an option to read the meter yourself and submit the reading to the gas co.? Estimate reading works pretty good after a year which time they know the consumption pattern. Any how if you over paid, at the end you'll get credit. If under paid, you may have to pay larger than usual amount to catch up. No matter wht, I think gas co. has upper hand. Legally what can you do?

[Bob F]

But, do they track? Over a few months, do their readings fall between your readings bracketing the time they read it? Or are their reading way higher/lower than yours on a consistant basis?

[norminn]

Look at the utility's website; it may answer your question. Long time ago, in Indiana, we had questions about the water metering. The city's answer was that if the meter had been undermeasuring, we were liable for the est. difference when a new meter was installed. If it had been overmeasuring, no action (the city would not refund us). Your city building department may also have the facts. Not knowing where you live, no atty is going to be able to give you an accurate answer.

[norminn]

Read on the same date? Electronically or on site?

[Stormin Mormon]

Not an attorney. But, my utiltiy company used to let you read and report your own meter reading every other month or so. I remember, when I was a teen, it was a lot of fun to read the gas meter, and mail in the form.

My bill has the "meter number" which is inside the glass, by the reading dials. Perhaps you're reading the wrong meter? Take your bill, in hand, and go check the numbers. That might be the confusion.

You mentioned six units in your place?

[Stormin Mormon]

Meter reader has shaky hands and drinking problem?