LED bulb: 17 Years, $50.00

No, the natural gas water heaters in my home, my mother's home, my divorced father's home, my boyfriends's mother's home, and in the home of my only sibling living elsewhere from above, and in my church, all of those water heaters that I know do not use electricity for water heating.

What? Have you not heard of natural gas ovens? Among myself and family and close friends, I know of 5 gas ovens and 1 electric one.

So you are arguing on basis of choosing a TV of a kind that uses more electricity than is used by most chosen by our fellow Americans?

(Or what was your argument here, since what I responded to having to do with TV usage was snipped out?)

Even there, the ROI on investing in energy-efficient lighting is usually impressively good.

That sounds to me like you go to bed to sleep for the night by 9 PM. It does appear to me that an American needing to have only one light in the house to be on and only on for 5 minutes between 9 and 11 PM is even more uncommon than an American household that can halve its electric bill by replacing incandescents with CFLs.

I know of some CFLs that are good for porch lights. The Philips SL/O, or whatever they call them now and maybe now only available from Home Depot in 15 watt wattage, do well. My mother uses those for porch lights, and they usually last more than a year running all night every night and through many days.

Reply to
Don Klipstein
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My experience is that even in the left-winging University City section of Philadelphia, on-all-night outdoor lighting has houses having CFL outnumbering incandescent by more like 3-to-1, likely closer to 2.5-to-1.

In the neighborhood of my closest friend other than my boyfriend (near but outside Lansdale PA), I find the ratio to be fairly close to 1-to-1, definitely *a lot less* than 2-to-1. In my boyfriend's mother's neighborhood (Aldan PA), most outdoor lighting by households is incandescent. In my mother's neighborhood (in Abington township PA), I see outdoor lighting by households being incandescent but maybe by a small margin. And, I was counting fixtures rather than watts.

My mother enjoys savings compared to incandescent for her porch light, whether or not she turns it off daytime.

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

Reply to
Don Klipstein

Wow, what to do with a nickel...

Doesn't change the percentages. Lighting is still insignificant.

You can do arithmetic!

Measured.

If SWMBO wasn't working it would be more like 24.

Bigger fish to fry, without *ugly* bulbs. BTW, I do have T10s in the "attic" (bonus room above garage - finishing it into a shop).

Reply to
krw

Small band of temperature. Heat pumps certainly don't have SEERs of 14 at

20F, where more heat is needed than at 50F (where a *lot* less is needed).

So what is 50-100% of insignificant?

The idiot was proposing that 50% savings were normal and expected. Given that some use electricity for other than light, it's a silly proposition. I don't believe you. Come show me.

*ALL* of them can. That's why they're called "heat pumps", rather than "air conditioners".

When AC is used, it tends to be lighter longer, reducing the lighting heat load on the HP, over what would be used in heating season. It is *not* symmetrical.

Besides that point, we just don't use much lighting, even in winter months, and surely don't leave them burning without reason. There is a *lot* more savings to be had by using less lighting than forcing people to use crappy CFLs. I turn lights off. I will *not* use CFLs. BTDT.

It worked. ;-)

Reply to
krw

You think a nickel is significant. I don't.

Nonsense. You're looking for your green fix. I'd rather not have (green) CFL light. It makes no sense.

I've not seen one. I tried a bunch and *all* had issues, from green or blue casts, to *slow* starts (to the point that they were always off before they got to full brightness). ...and they're *UGLY*.

I've never had one light in five *minutes*.

Never had one with an outer bulb. ...I don't think.

No, that wasn't what I meant and you know it. Heat pumps are used for more than heat.

It's not halved for a "few cold days". We heat about the same number of days as we air condition (AC a little less $$). Heat pumps don't have double the (effective) efficiency as resistive heat at all temperatures. They get down to 1:1 at around 30F, and then switch to resistive heat. It's *not* as cut and dried as you pretend.

Outside the heating season it's naturally lighter outside. It is *not* symmetrical.

Reply to
krw

Looking around my neighborhood, I see zero CFLs. In my VT neighborhood, quite a green place, there were also zero (for good reason - they wouldn't light until spring).

She'll save even more by turning it off.

Reply to
krw

Can't you read? We generally watch television (or are online) during that time. No lights required. Plasma and LCD screens put out plenty of light so we don't (often) trip on the cats (they do like to lie in the middle of the floor).

I thought you said you halved your bill with only CFLs.

Nope, the porch lights are cans and the garage lights are decorative, as are all the interior lights with the exception of a two table lamps. No CFLs need apply.

Reply to
krw

All the units that are not either "U" tube or "twisties" have an outer bulb. I've got some "fat alberts" and some that look like normal bulbs, and some PAR reflectors and they all take a LONG time to come to full brighness - none of these) have lasted 2 years and most cost me well over $3 - the PARS were $9 and change - and never seen a 9 year warranty. The current crop of 14 watt Phillips "fat alberts" cost me $8 each in 3 pack - and are already taking twice as long to come up to brightness than they did when they were bought in November of 2009. The PAR at the bottom of my stairway is a 15 watt sylvania installed in August 2009 and takes at least 5 minutes to warm up. It is the 4th or 5th installed in that location over the last 3 years. At least 2 lasted less than 3 months - and one lasted about 15 seconds.The incandescents always lasted over 3 years. We've been in this house 28 years - and I think I replaced that bulb 3? times before I started putting in CFLs to satisfy my "thrifty" wife.

Up here we heat from about Canadian Thanksgiving 'till May 24 on an average year. - That's 7 months. Last summer the AC ran for about a week. Heating is an absolute necessity - AC is an option.

Friends with ground source heat pumps this past winter only had a few days at a time where back-up heat was required. for more than an hour or two - during our deep freeze that got down below zero F. Air sourced heat pumps don't do well up here - and you don't see a lot of them any more.

Reply to
clare

All the ones I've used have been "twisties". They suck in every way. Useless for cans, useless for table lamps, and would look ugly as hell in chandeliers and ceiling fans. That leaves, um, a closet. Wait, they're slow to come up to brightness. Scratch the closet.

That's about what it was when I lived in Vermont, maybe even a little more sporadically. We'll likely be into AC season (at least during the day) when you turn your heat off. I prefer fresh air, though.

I wouldn't expect so. In VT I had a hyrdonic oil system that we converted to gas. AC was a thru-the-wall unit (2T) in the living room. I added a "window" unit through the wall in our bedroom because I was having trouble sleeping.

Reply to
krw

I figure more like 30 cents per day for my apartment. In most houses, the savings are more.

My N:Vision spirals are most of the way warmed up in 1 minute, and are usually as bright at 2 minutes as they ae at 2 hours. This is according to my Lutron LX-101A light meter. My Philips and Sylvania spirals arrea only slightly slower to me.

Reply to
Don Klipstein

Your numbers before were $.35 vs. $.30. Even at $.30/day, that's half the cost of an unreadable newspaper; trivial. At that "cost" there is no reason to put up with *ugly*.

The ones I bought certainly weren't. In cold weather they were even worse. The laundry room light (not a CFL) took at least a half hour to come up to brightness. Instead of just using it when we were in there, it stayed on all day. A real savings there.

Reply to
krw

I re-estimated hours per week for each lamp since I did not commit that or my previous savings estimate figure to memory.

Except I don't find mine ugly at all. For one thing, CFLs come in a variety of color temperatures. And various brands, wattage ranges, general types, and tubing diameters have trends of slightly more purplish or more greenish color. Because of this, I can get the color that I want.

And the spiral shape does not appear ugly to me. Anyway, the shape of a spiral CFL is not visible in many fixtures. Where the bare spiral tubing is visible, it is usually uncomfortably bright to spend much time looking at anyway.

Reply to
Don Klipstein

You like looking at harsh, twisty, lights. What can I say?

...and we're supposed to buy them all and throw away the ones we don't like? BTW, I've never seen one I like the light from. I do have several T10s (?) that I use for shop light. Different application, though.

It certainly does in my fixtures. They're intended for unfrosted bulbs. Twisties look like hell.

It would be in every one of mine, other than the cans, where they aren't useable, anyway.

60W incandescents don't have that problem.
Reply to
krw

Start with ones in resealable containers and purchased from places with a good return policy. Any unreturnable ones of nonoptimum color can go where color matters less.

Or, try seeing what brands, models, and wattages are already being used successfully somewhere else.

The least greenish (most purplish) one that I can at this moment that is good are Sylvania's 3000K models. Towards the other extreme, among decent ones I have found Philips 2700K spirals of lower wattages to be less- purplish, more-greenish. Among 3500K spirals, I have found Sylvania to be a bit on the purplish side but acceptable. My favorite was Westinghouse "medium white", but that appears to me not easy to find and did not last as long in bathroom duty as other brands. N:Vision appeared to me to have an in-between shade of 3500K, slightly purplish but less so than Sylvania. (Home Depot recently replaced N:Vision with another brand that may be similar.)

They look rather bright to me to look at for long, though I find 40 watt soft whites easy to look at.

Reply to
Don Klipstein

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