LED bulb: 17 Years, $50.00

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On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:43:28 -0500, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

In a well dsigned house with reasonable window area in most of the country, if you use natural gas for heat and hot water and electricity for everything else, how much power is consumed by lighting on an average day? Say 3 lights for 4 hours, and a couple more for an hour each. Say they are 100 watt bulbs. That's 1400 watt hours - or 1.4kw hours per day for essential lighting. If you have kids at home, and they are in differnt rooms, double it. Add a bit to be fair, and you have 3KWh of lighting consumption.
You make a pot of coffee with your 1500 watt tea kettle. It takes 3 minutes? That's 75 watt hours Yout toast is another 125? Your Bacon and eggs another 500. Then there is your refrigerator, and your circulating fan on your furnace (2.4KwH minimum) So your lighting is already less than half your electrical consumption - meaning that if you turned ALL your lights OFF you would save roughly half of your electricity. So even if your CFLs consume 1/4 the power your incandescents do, you are only saving about 35% of your power consumption. In reality you usually use electricity for a lot more non-lighting purposes than just breakfast so the returns drop even more - even if you also use more lights.
CFLs definitely save money - but I'll never believe 50% of the electrical bill unless they are like mine and don't work at all after several months to a year - and I've NEVER bought cfls for half a buck, or even a buck.
In my opinion the only CFL worth wasting much time on is the one that plays on the "big" field - and I don't even waste time or TV power on them these days.
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On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 20:55:46 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Ok, $.30.

Sounds light by two or three, but...

Now add for to six hours of TV (or twelve), for another 2-3kWh (double).

Yep. Lighting really is small potatoes. CFLs are a (lousy) solution without a problem.

I haven't even watched the 'N' version for a couple of years. ;-)
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Except that USA national average electricity cost is more than 10 cents per KWH - was 11 a couple years ago, probably closer to 12 now. Make that 35 cents *per day* for the amount of lighting mentioned, which appears to me below-average in modern USA homes unlike mine.
The Philadelphia metro area is bracing itself for a big jump soon from the already-above-national-average rate.

(Except that I have cold breakfast to save time as well as energy, and my heat does not use a circulating fan)

That means the TV consumes 500 watts - sounds to me very high! My TV consumes slightly less than 100 watts! My boyfriend and I combined only have the TV on 2 hours per day on average!

One thing that I see is ROI.
<SNIP from here>
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- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

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On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 04:50:24 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:
<snip for size>

Wow, what to do with a nickel...

Doesn't change the percentages. Lighting is still insignificant.

You can do arithmetic!

Measured.

If SWMBO wasn't working it would be more like 24.
<snip>

Bigger fish to fry, without *ugly* bulbs. BTW, I do have T10s in the "attic" (bonus room above garage - finishing it into a shop).
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Maybe a little unusually, I tank up on hot caffeinated beverages after I get to work at my "day job" and tank upon cold ready-to-drink caffeinated beverages at home as well as at times on the job. I use the time saved for getting in some sleep or getting done something else that I want to do (sometimes that's getting paying work done).

2.4 KWH per day minimum for a furnace circulating fan? How about days when I don't need heat much or at all? What about modern technology where effort is made to reduce the energy cost of such things? How about if the circulating fan is my landlord's problem? How about my *actual situation* where my heat is delivered without a circulating fan, and is not resistive electric heat?

I did already admit that 50% is only achievable in some homes and most will save less. As I said before, for USA national average, lighting is 9% of residential electricity use. Even with the percentage being lower where electricity costs less and higher where electricity cost is more, I see 50% reduction of electric bill by changing the lighting to be doable in only some minority of homes. In most homes, the percentage is less, often a lot less, but still significant.

I don't eat hot breakfast. Cold cereal with milk, some juice and caffeinated soda takes less time and costs me no utility bills unless the refrigerator costs me more to store milk in it.

What I claimed before is that in some but not most homes 50% is achievable, and in most homes a lesser but still-significant amount is doable.

Most CFLs that I have used lasted 4 years or more. I have mentioned brand of CFL or abusive application that in my experience accounts for most CFLs that don't.

Lowest I saw for ones other than dollar store 99%-stool-specimens is $9.99 for a 6-pack plus sales tax. That is still a lower ratio of cost-per-bulb to life expectancy (even if only CFL only averages 4,000-6,000 hours in real-world) than incandescents. Energy savings are in addition to bulb savings in that area.

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- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

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You call that temperature band small. That temperature band appears to me to include nearly all heating on the Pacific Coast from San Francisco to 49 degrees N latitude. It also appears to me to be wide enough to include both long-term year-round average temperature and long-term average temperature of January alone for all of USA's "Northeast Corrider" from Washington DC to Boston including the suburbs.

To me, use of home heating other than resistive electric heat increases the home heating cost of using energy-efficient lighting from 0% to 50% of the electricity savings.

Can you tell us how he claimed that was "normal" as opposed to "can be done"? I am aware that changing to energy-efficient lighting can reduce the electric bills of some homes by 50% (I have done that), and that in most homes the savings from doing so are smaller.

Do you mean how some of them can be "reversed" to be used for cooling to negate need for separate air conditioning units? Or are you talking about heating outside of "heating season"?
Can you tell me better how my thinking is insufficient for questioning lack of need for lighting for long outside of bathrooms in homes when heat is not needed?

OK, if you want to bitch me out about that...
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- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

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On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 04:15:40 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

Small band of temperature. Heat pumps certainly don't have SEERs of 14 at 20F, where more heat is needed than at 50F (where a *lot* less is needed).

So what is 50-100% of insignificant?

The idiot was proposing that 50% savings were normal and expected. Given that some use electricity for other than light, it's a silly proposition. I don't believe you. Come show me.

*ALL* of them can. That's why they're called "heat pumps", rather than "air conditioners".

When AC is used, it tends to be lighter longer, reducing the lighting heat load on the HP, over what would be used in heating season. It is *not* symmetrical.
Besides that point, we just don't use much lighting, even in winter months, and surely don't leave them burning without reason. There is a *lot* more savings to be had by using less lighting than forcing people to use crappy CFLs. I turn lights off. I will *not* use CFLs. BTDT.

It worked. ;-)
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Every building ive covnverted to cfls the electric bill dropped 50-60%, I guess you have money to burn because I know of no one who would not love a 50% reduction. The heat is generated, you put it in, whether or not the bulb is off, but who only runs the AC when no lights are on, kinda like torchure isnt it! I bet you never did a cost comparison of BTUs from Ng to electric because for most all the US electric is easily now double the cost of gas, you never thought why electric furnaces and boilers dont sell in your area did you. And at 1.85 for a 4 pack of cfls, well you just again prove you dont know any facts you speak of.
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Cool! They save money on my heat pump, water heater, and oven, too! Hows that work?
IOW, you're a liar.

I repeat, you need to learn to *think*.
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keith wrote:

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On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 06:02:19 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

Insignificant.
Duh! You have a command of the obvious, anyway.

Either you aren't reading or your biases are making you blind. No one is advocating incandescent bulbs because they save electricity. CFLs are ugly, the light is ugly, are slow to start, can't be used in many fixtures, and are expensive, no matter what "ransley" says.

Right. With your stupid comment about heat pumps only being used in heating season and your blindness to the real argument, you've joined that club.
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On Apr 24, 12:48pm, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

You are Ignorance at it best
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wrote:

You lost the argument. No problem, you can admit it.
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 05:11:00 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

You think a nickel is significant. I don't.

Nonsense. You're looking for your green fix. I'd rather not have (green) CFL light. It makes no sense.

I've not seen one. I tried a bunch and *all* had issues, from green or blue casts, to *slow* starts (to the point that they were always off before they got to full brightness). ...and they're *UGLY*.

I've never had one light in five *minutes*.

Never had one with an outer bulb. ...I don't think.

No, that wasn't what I meant and you know it. Heat pumps are used for more than heat.
It's not halved for a "few cold days". We heat about the same number of days as we air condition (AC a little less $$). Heat pumps don't have double the (effective) efficiency as resistive heat at all temperatures. They get down to 1:1 at around 30F, and then switch to resistive heat. It's *not* as cut and dried as you pretend.

Outside the heating season it's naturally lighter outside. It is *not* symmetrical.
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:06:41 -0500, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

All the units that are not either "U" tube or "twisties" have an outer bulb. I've got some "fat alberts" and some that look like normal bulbs, and some PAR reflectors and they all take a LONG time to come to full brighness - none of these) have lasted 2 years and most cost me well over $3 - the PARS were $9 and change - and never seen a 9 year warranty. The current crop of 14 watt Phillips "fat alberts" cost me $8 each in 3 pack - and are already taking twice as long to come up to brightness than they did when they were bought in November of 2009. The PAR at the bottom of my stairway is a 15 watt sylvania installed in August 2009 and takes at least 5 minutes to warm up. It is the 4th or 5th installed in that location over the last 3 years. At least 2 lasted less than 3 months - and one lasted about 15 seconds.The incandescents always lasted over 3 years. We've been in this house 28 years - and I think I replaced that bulb 3? times before I started putting in CFLs to satisfy my "thrifty" wife.

Up here we heat from about Canadian Thanksgiving 'till May 24 on an average year. - That's 7 months. Last summer the AC ran for about a week. Heating is an absolute necessity - AC is an option.
Friends with ground source heat pumps this past winter only had a few days at a time where back-up heat was required. for more than an hour or two - during our deep freeze that got down below zero F. Air sourced heat pumps don't do well up here - and you don't see a lot of them any more.

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On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:27:33 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

All the ones I've used have been "twisties". They suck in every way. Useless for cans, useless for table lamps, and would look ugly as hell in chandeliers and ceiling fans. That leaves, um, a closet. Wait, they're slow to come up to brightness. Scratch the closet.

That's about what it was when I lived in Vermont, maybe even a little more sporadically. We'll likely be into AC season (at least during the day) when you turn your heat off. I prefer fresh air, though.

I wouldn't expect so. In VT I had a hyrdonic oil system that we converted to gas. AC was a thru-the-wall unit (2T) in the living room. I added a "window" unit through the wall in our bedroom because I was having trouble sleeping.
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<in small part, snipped down to this by me, D.K.>

No, the statement is not that well punctuated but he did mean 11 of these, not one.

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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<SNIP to here, even at risk of loss of track of who said what>

What's so bad about shifting home heating energy consumption from the home lighting to something likely having greater cost effectiveness, such as many home heating systems? Often, the home heating system delivers more BTU per $ due to energy source being other than electricity.
Increasing energy efficiency of the home lighting also reduces cost of any home air conditioning pumping out the heat from whatever lighting needs to be used when A/C needs to be used (and in USA that is far above zero).

That was typo-ed - the one who stated this appeared to me to be typo-ing a claim that for most of US natural gas costs about half as much for home heating as electricity does, possibly qualifiable for electric heat being resistive as opposed to from a heat pump.

Not the water heater in any home owned by any homeowner I know,
Not most oven energy usage in the experience of my entire life,
And plasma TVs still only exist in a minority of homes even in mid-2010 due to high cost and after that high energy consumption per square foot of screen area being second-worst second to CRT.
And it appears to me that electric heat pumps are disproportionately used where electricity cost is below-average and/or where winters are chilly to the particular extent where electric heat pumps are more advantageous (as in requirement of major home heating while most of the time during winter the outdoor temperature is low enough to require major home heating but high/consistent enough to make an electric heat pump to be the way to go, with consideration to local cost of electrical energy).

How about Philadelphia at 9 PM to 11 PM in most summer days? Or Memphis or Houston or New Orleans for that matter?

Every CFL in my home is close to fully warmed up in 1 minute or less. Most of my home-use CFLs are almost fully warmed up in half a minute. My bathroom is bright enough for me to use (or more-still) within 1 second after I turn the switch on - when I dare. (At times I find the need to take a leak when the fractional-watt LED nightlight there gives me all the light I want and then-some.)
Also, do you believe that most people go to bed for the night as soon as it gets dark even during cooling season? Especially at lower latitudes where cooling needs are greater, sunset time varies less with time of year, and where USA has population shift towards? Such as in/near Houston or Phoenix?
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 06:22:47 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

Nothing as long as you're not lying about it. Count it all. Let the consumer make the choice. Stop watermelons, dead.

During that time less lighting is needed, naturally. The point is that lighting is a *trivial* use of electricity, yet CFLs are presented as the savior. Just give up your incandescents and all will be well. YOU VILL GIVE THEM UP! Nope, not happening. I don't want CFLs.

Thanks, I read it five times and couldn't make any sense of it.

Your electric water heaters didn't use electricity?

You electric oven doesn't use electricity?

Ah, so they don't register on my electric bill?

Well, duh! Figure that, heat pumps are used where heat pumps work. BTW, they seem to be common in much of the US, now. They still *swamp* my lighting bills. The heat pumps are easily half my highest bills (about $100/mo in the coldest/warmest months).

My house isn't in Philadelphia, or Houston (but about 300 miles from NOLA). Between 9:00 and 11:00 I doubt that I ever have a light on for more than five minutes. Well, we leave the porch lights on (not candidates for CFLs, if I did like them) if we're gone.

Lucky you. That certainly *wasn't* the case in my VT home. They took a good fifteen minutes to come up to full light. Since I only wanted them on for *maybe* two, they were a total loser.

That's I use. Yes, I do like LED nightlights. I don't much care about the lousy color when all I want to do is save my toe, and the cat. We have several around the house.

We weren't talking about everyone. No I don't go to bed when it gets dark, but that's generally the time we relax in front of the 500W plasma television. It gives off enough light.
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