Hello toAll...............As the original poster on the K&T and cloth wiring questions I certainly appreciate all the input and observations. First when I sell the house I will definitely repost the results as requested. As to the insurance. I only purchased the house ( upstate NY) 5 years ago and I bought full fire/casualty/etc. insurance and had no problems insuring it. From what I've read here I certainly don't want to deal with State Farm in spite of their commercials. However, I am still unclear what changing to breaker panel does for me (with the exception that it will look more modern) if the current wiring still remains ungrounded. Also if I do run "green" wire to the current fuse panel ground and then change the receptacles to
3-prong will I now be in violation because the K&T and cloth would no longer have ungrounded 2-prong receptacles? Also because all the wiring is grandfathered and no work has been done to it the NYS real estate board says that this does NOT require to be disclosed as a major defect nor because someone says it is a major defect. The reason I checked this was that the (now fired) real estate woman who had decided to appoint herself as the authority on all things electrical and structural insisted I add the wiring as a MAJOR PROBLEM. Be all that as it may however, I would like to come up with a solution if there is one that wasn't just "tear it all out". I'd rather not spend 15% of the selling price just to say to a buyer look new panel. Once again thanks for all the input. John
Few insurance companies will provide homeowners insurance for fuse boxes anymore, too many people say well a 15 amp blows, so make it a 20 amp, oh what the heck \\ heres a 30:(. I have a good friend like that who has K&T and 30 amp fuses on 14 gauge wiring, one day his home will cease to exist:(
Have you found a new realtor who doesnt call the wiring a problem? if a realtor knowling covers up or assists in covering up or is even part of this their agency can be sued or even lose their license.
Just to play devils advocate you have only owned this home 5 years.... what about the 100 years previous? how can you be certain someone didnt muck with it?
Having sold a home 2 years ago its horrible and I certinally wish you the best but fear any buyer you get will want the wiring replaced:(
curious is your home priced much less than surrounding ones? 40 grand today is pretty cheap, in california the exact same home would likey be half a million bucks.
Once again your information is incorrect. "S" type fuse adapters can be screwed into the plug fuse sockets and only the proper size fuse can be used. They are UL approved and happen to be safer in many respects that circuit breakers, and I'd rather doubt any insurance company would have an issue with them
The gospel according to the US NEC is that you can. viz "250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections. Equipment grounding conductor connections at the source of separately derived systems shall be made in accordance with 250.30(A)(1). Equipment grounding conductor connections at service equipment shall be made as indicated in 250.130(A) or (B). For replacement of non?grounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C). (C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure (5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure" Copyright 2002 the National Fire Protection Association
Nate Explain this. The premise in question is served by a metallic water line lateral connected to an underground water system that stretches over several hundred square miles. No how many stakes; what we here call rods; will it take to have a better grounding electrode system; what you folks call an earthing array if I remember correctly; than that public water system. Hint it can't be done.
Can you explain why the US National Electric Code requires the underground metallic water piping be used as part of the Grounding Electrode System? It does you know, even when the entire interior plumbing system is non metallic.
In your case, since you are selling, some lending institutions (such as government backed loans) may require a minimum 100 amp service. Something to be aware of anyway, not that you should have it done now for that reason, but at least it won't be a surprise should it pop up during the sale. Many realtors have electrician's in there pocket just for such and prices tend to be higher simply because they know it's holding up the show and many people will just say "do it." Take the electrician who quoted you $1500(US) for an upgrade. IMO, for a 100 amp service, the bid is about $500 too high. In my area, for $1500 one can get a 200 amp service.
Additionally, if you decide to upgrade, I would recommend no less than a 125 amp service because, should electric central heat or air be desired in the future, the service calc. usually comes in over 100 amps.
Upgrading the service will also allow new circuits to be added. The old fuse panels are usually only a Main/Range and 4 (circuits). K&T circuits are usually limited to 15 amps. Even with gas appliances, the kitchen should have a minimum of two 20 amp circuits. Window air conditioners sometimes create an overload situation on 15 amp circuits. With K&T/fuses the usual tendency for homeowners/tenants is to throw in larger fuses. Not good. In fact, electrician's are required by NEC to install Type "S" fuse adapters if they see evidence of fuse tampering.
No, that's the purpose of running the green wire, upgrading. An NEC accepted alternative is to install a GFCI at the first outlet, feed through it downstream and install regular 3 prong outlets on the rest of the circuit, marking them with the stickers that come with the GFCI receptacle as "no ground."
IMO, it's a waste of time to install just a green wire. Whatever it takes to install Romex is going to be the same as installing just a green wire. You'll be glad that you spent the extra $300 for the Romex, plus you will be able to get in some needed kitchen circuits.
A good point made by another poster, if you have blown-in insulation, it results in a serious code violation with K&T....something many people are not aware of and salespeople tend to say nothing about. Also, you might want to take a peak in the attic and/or basement to see if the old cloth covered cable was spliced into the K&T without using boxes, another serious code violation.
I know that you don't want to hear it, but IMHO, K&T and cloth covered cable has had it's day and the "phase out" has been extended by NEC long enough.
It requires the metallic plumbing to be bonded. That is not the same thing as using the metallic plumbing as the point of ground source for other parts of the wiring.
it was spliced inside the wall with no boxes, then covered over by wood lathe and plaster so a overheated connection can cause a fire, and insulation just makes it worse.
NOTHING lasts forever and what else do YOU own that lasts over a 100 years?
people think nothing of a new car every 5 years, for dependability and safety. that would be 20 vehicles in a hundred years. at a very consertive 10 grand a year $200,000..........
meanwhile some get upset over spending a few grand........
I had a friend shopping for a home, it was a $100,000 but the K&T HAD to go to get a mortage. the seller refused the 5 grand credit and my friend bought a different home.
the housing market cooled while the home went thru three realtors.:(
the home finally sold for 85 grand, clearly the seller made a bad choice.. cost him over a year and 10 grand.
I HOPE the OP gets his price and a quick sale........
Everyone knows, or should know, that K&T is boxless everywhere. Back in those days there was a keen awareness of the hazards of bad connections so the joints were made by highly skilled people with great care, soldered and taped with something besides Jap wrap. Original K&T needed no boxes for that reason. Somewhere along the line somebody installed cloth covered cable in the OP's house and _those_ were the connections to which I was referring. Any connections made to the original K&T were very likely made with wire nuts, if that, and need to be in a box. This is only one of the many types of abuse that K&T has suffered over the years.
It's sometimes hard to find, but seeing an original installation of K&T that hasn't been butchered by bad splices and destroyed by overloading/overheating is a thing of beauty.
I believe that K&T has withstood that test of time with flying colors. It's the hacked and abused wiring that gets the bad rap, and yes, insulation makes it much worse.
The wiring in milions of homes. K&T is pushing 100 years and still hanging in there. The insulation in today's wiring will last much longer, installed properly. Also, the plethora of today's electric codes will help ensure that today's wiring will not be overloaded and abused like K&T was.
Smart man! :) It does nothing truly useful although it _might_ have a cosmetic effect of influencing a potential buyer simply owing to the new look, particularly for an individual with little or no technical knowledge or first-time owner. OTOH, there are a lot of folks who buy houses essentially on nothing more than whether it just appeals to them.
My suggestion would be to first, ignore hallerb's ranting about absolute uninsurability -- he brings this windmill out to joust against at every opportunity. There _may_ be a problem in his area, but I frankly would be surprised that even there it would be nearly as widespread as he wants to make it appear and there probably was some specific issue behind the anectdotal "evidence" rather than a full proscription. But, that's also conjecture on my part, based on what is the general rule here. None of the houses in the local "Old Town Revitalization District" project have been denied homeowners' insurance nor mortgages for existing K&T wiring that met (grandfathered) code requirements and was otherwise not defective. I know something of this having served on the OTRD board the last several years. In fact, as someone else noted, in only an instance or two am I aware that underwriters even asked for more than the basic square footage, frame/brick, wood/composition/other roofing, etc., kind of checklist questions and a general overview of the house condition for full coverage.
As for adding grounded outlets, again I'd suggest doing nothing unless a prospective buyer wants to make it a condition, and then consider it a negotiating point. Someone else w/ electrician credentials already noted in another response the use of a GFCI outlet as the first on a circuit -- that would be my suggestion of how to proceed if really were interested in doing it as a preemptive strike sort of thing.
As for disclosure, every state has its own rules on what must be disclosed, and some localities may have additional as well, but those are documented by statute and there will be forms available that meet those legal obligations. Beyond what is specifically listed on the forms I would not venture. I don't recommend trying to "hide" anything, but there is no obligation, legal or moral, to make a problem out of a molehill or to create the impression of a deficiency or defect where none exists. That K&T wiring is obsolete for new construction is _NOT_ the issue and to confuse that with the requirement to be open and complete in disclosure is simply a case of comparing apples and oranges for a common metaphor.
Also, remember that real estate agents are not really, fundamentally, working for you -- they're actually working for the buyer in most transactions. Again, disclosure and rules of representation vary by state and locality and in some instances even with the actual title with which the agent represents him/herself. Be sure you are aware of those rules so that you understand the motives and obligations driving the agent -- you may find yourself surprised by what the rules actually say in that regard. In this case, it does sound as though you found one who was going out to make a better bargain for her prospective buyer in order to try to close a deal and get the smaller commission sooner rather than hope for a few hundred dollars more later with more time invested on her part. Similar caveats hold for inspectors, of course, and I would be particularly wary of those brought in by a realtor in behalf of the purchaser -- they are beholden to the realtor and are not working in your behalf.
I'll throw in another -- someone else already mentioned the _independent_ appraisal, I'll add it could be worthwhile to get an inspection done on your behalf as well to have as a comparative standard for potential buyers or, if provided it up front, some potential buyers might even accept it. In doing this, of course, you'll want to ensure up front that the inspector you hire doesn't have a personal bias against K&T as some I've run across have seemed to have been taught from the hallerb school and simply check it off as a "problem" as opposed to actually inspecting it for condition/compliance, etc.
And, lastly, never go into a major obligation/transaction without getting legal review of documents if there's anything whatsoever that seems suspicious regarding clauses of responsibility or other riders other than a clean transfer of deed. Some buyers recently are attempting to attach all sorts of strings on hidden faults, etc., that can spring up even years later -- you want to be certain, particularly on an older home, that "when it's gone, it's gone." For this reason, again, be sure you disclosures are full and complete and meet the letter of the laws in your jurisdiction but make no representation beyond that, either good or bad.
Sorry WRONG agents work for the SELLER unless they are specifically retained as BUYERS AGENTS and in that case a different agent has to represent the seller.
If the water service pipe has 10 foot or more metal in contact with the earth it is required to be used as a grounding electrode, and the electrode connection may be made anywhere within 5 feet of the entrance. The water meter is required to be bonded. Ground wires discussed may be connected in the same 5 foot distance from the entrance point, as permitted in 250.130C. Grounds for phone and other communications protectors may be connected in the same 5 foot span, as for instance in
800.100B.
RBM's statement should be narrowed to the extent that if there is not 10 ft metal in contact with the earth the water pipe can't be used for other grounds, as discussed.
These are not code snippets without context. You have not provided any "code snippets" supporting your view. And you are arguing with 3 electricians (including Thomas Horne).
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