Knob & Tube and Cloth Shielded Wiring

[RBM]

If you own a code book you can read section 250.131C

[bigjim]

How does insurance know what type of wiring is in the house? When they inspected my 1935 house they only took pictures of outside and measure square footage outside. They never came inside.

[e-mail] wrote:

[Charlie Morgan]

It is illegal in all 50 states to use cold water pipes for ground. That has been true for many years. Cold water pipes should be bonded for safety, but they are not allowed as a point for grounding wiring.

CWM

[RBM]

When "because charlie morgan says" becomes the bible on electrical wiring, I'll listen to you, but until then I tend to go by the "National Electric Code", which backs up my statements in the section referenced

[hallerb]

I challenge you and espically the OP to call a major insurer like state farm allstate etc and ask if they WILL INSURE A NEW CUSTOMER BUYING A K&T WIRED HOME TODAY!

Someone else posted they HAD to upgrade to get rid of K&T to have insurance, a good friend had that happen too. after his homeowners company was sold.

insurance today is risk adverse.

I stand by my statement!

state farm is just one example they dont write new policies on K&T homes but do keep existing customers. State farm said if theres a fire or claim they require K&T is elminated

[RBM]

You can stand by your statement , and you can be wrong. I'm sure insurance companies won't write policies on "bad wiring" regardless of the type, but obviously there are many houses with K&T that are insured

[hallerb]

AGAIN:( Call state farm and ask buying a home with K&T in perfect shape will you provide homeowners insurance?

Then post back my agent says NO WAY!

Existing policies are not effected, but sell or try changing companies and you lose:(

[hallerb]

YOU MUST bond you water line to your main home ground, but it MUST also use ground rods and have a ground jumper across the water meter.

But the water line is no way no how safe as the only ground!

[RBM]

Am I to assume you've investigated this claim with the six hundred or so insurance companies in the US?.... or just your neighbor and your insurance agent

[hallerb]

My friend will koehler was pretty upset and reported he called about 20 companies they ALL said NO.

He unhappily had his home rewired at much expense........

I have romex and BX so I wouldnt bother calling the remaining companies:)

now why dont YOU call a few and report your findings!

[RBM]

Has anyone suggested it was?

[RBM]

[hallerb]

The OP reported no ground and wondered if he could use the water ine as the only ground:(

[Charlie Morgan]

You are simply wrong. The NEC agrees with me. Its dangerous and illegal to use cold water pipes for a ground, and has been for many years. You are a twit.

CWM

[HeyBub]

Then your code book is wrong. The purpose of attaching a ground to a water pipe is to ground the water pipe!

This protects the homeowner or plumber when dealing with a (possibly broken) electrical appliance near the pipes.

[RBM]

Yes that's correct and if you had read the NEC 250.131c , you would find that by attaching the water line, and ground rods, etc, together it forms the grounding electrode system, and that a grounding conductor for a replacement grounding outlet ,can be attached to any part of that system, which includes the main cold water pipe extending no more than five feet into the building

[Steve Barker LT]

I'll not humor you by providing proof. All I can tell you is there are literally hundreds of early 1900's homes in the town i live in with K&T wiring and I'll bet a dollar they're all insured. My wife and I have looked personally at about a dozen as investment possibilities, and about half of them had all or some K&T wiring. The one we ended up buying had remnants of it, but none in use.

Believe me, i'm not uninformed on the subject. Perhaps i just live in an area that not so ANAL about shit that don't matter.

steve

[Steve Barker LT]

From the 2000 IRC. ( the one my jurisdiction uses) :

E3508.1.1 Metal underground water pipe.Ametal underground

water pipe in direct contact with the earth for10 feet

(3048 mm) or more and electrically continuous to the points

of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the

bonding conductors shall be considered as a grounding electrode.

Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection

to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or

filtering devices and similar equipment. A metal underground

water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional

electrode of a type specified in this section or in Section

E3508.2. The supplemental electrode shall be bonded to the

grounding electrode conductor, the grounded service-entrance

conductor, the grounded service raceway or any

grounded service enclosure.

Where the supplemental electrode is a made electrode in

accordance with Section E3508.2, that portion of the bond-

ing jumper that is the sole connection to the supplemental

grounding electrode shall not be required to be larger than

No. 6 copper wire or No. 4 aluminum wire.

[hallerb]

others HERE reported they HAD to upgrade to get homeowners.........

isnt that sufficent?

anyone who questions this just call and ask espically the OP and do ask about rates since they may not be affordable:((

[Nate Nagel]

How is it a "problem" if everything is code compliant? Yes, he should tell prospective buyers that the house is wired with K&T so they aren't surprised but that would not fall under the category of disclosing a fault. UNLESS - of course - the receptacles are grounding type and are not really grounded. that would be a violation that ought to be disclosed.

nate