Knob and Tube BETA-33

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Bullshit again. Never been proven.
s
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homes remain in families sometimes for generations. takes a long time to rewire every K&T install......
now since you havent bothered to goggle, too lazy i guess while you just prooclaim you know..... check out this link it details homeowners troubles with K&T and has many reports of being unable to get insurance without rewiring...
please no futher comments till you do your homework:)
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery Îb752c2ebf08fc1bbc8d401968362eb3fcd3b0f02818301455c7eeeb952685b&invocationType=keyword_rollover&ie=UTF-8
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heres a direct copy from just one of these links
Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by Jerry_in_OC_MD (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 16:55
We had the home inspection on the 1920 "Dutch Colonial Revival" that we are in the process of purchasing. The Inspector had a lot of concerns about the knob and tube wiring in the house. Some, but not all of the electric is updated. He recommended that we (or preferably the seller) have the wiring inspected and safety tested by an licensed electrician before we take possession of the house.
He mentioned that it might be tough to get a homeowners policy with the electric in it's current state. Has anyone else had difficulty getting an insurance policy for their home because of knob-and-tube?
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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 18:11
Here in Ontario, if you have an existing policy, most insurers will cover a newly purchased home with knob & tube wiring, and give you 30-60 days to disconnect and replace it. This is a fairly recent change, for a couple of years, it was nigh on impossible to get insurance for any house with knob & tube unless it was with a high risk company.
First time home buyers are having more luck these days, but it often means wearing out your dialing finger. Having an electrical certificate stating that the wiring is safe and adequate and also advising what percentage of the wiring is knob & tube may help.
If you have home insurance now, check with your current broker to see how your company deals with knob & tube issues.
Hope this helps.
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Posted by joed (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 19:00
Here in Ontario I know of at least one person who was forced to replace their K&T or their insurance would not renew.
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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 21:49
I should have been clearer. Most insurers here will not take on a home with knob & tube, or keep an existing property with K & T unless it is disconnected and replaced within 30-60 days. The only exceptions I know of have been elderly folks who really don't use much power and tend to have no computers, VCR's, microwaves, and who live much more simply than those of us with all kinds of fancy appliances and toys. Electrician's letters advising that the wiring is safe and adequate for the senior have satisfied many insurance companies. Makes it tough for those buying the house if it's sold though.
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Posted by bas157 (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 22:06
When I bought my house, USAA (insurance company) wanted to see the home inspection report, which pictured some knob and tube wiring. They wanted it replaced until I showed them better pictures which clearly show the wiring was just a few pieces and the knobs, obviously hooked up.
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Posted by HappyCthulhu (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 12:09
We have knob and tube in our 1926 Tudor and never had any problems with getting insurance. We use State Farm. They never asked to see the inspection either. Knob and tube wireing is usually not a problem as long as it is in good shape.
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Posted by kennf (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:21
Other than insurance, the other problem with K&T is that you aren't supposed to insulate over it. So if you want to insulate the attic better than 1920s standards, you may be out of luck.
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Posted by Vermonster (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:45
We were unable to get homeowners insurance with knob and tube energized. Agreed to de-energize circuit and update. Policy is through Vermont Mutual. VT
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Posted by sharon_sd (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 6:46
Our (Ontario)insurance company has not asked us to change out the knob and tube that remains, and their rep has seen it. What they did require was that we remove the line from our oil tank to the furnace that ran under the concrete basement floor and replace it with a line on top of the floor.
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Posted by NancyLouise (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 8:01
We have a 100 year old home. When we recently switched insurance companies, during the inspection one of the first questions the inspector asked was if there was any K & T wiring. Luckily there wasn't. It is a very real safety concern. I believe it may be more difficult to get insurance because of it. Perhaps you can have monies taken off the asking price of the home to get the home's wiring up to code. It can't hurt to ask. NancyLouise
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Posted by Mom1993 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 15:00
We own a 1920's house, had all original K&T wiring. Amica (who we have used for 15 years) wouldn't insure the house - Fireman's fund would. We are replacing almost all of the original electrical...Good luck!
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Ok, I will do some reading of those links. BUT, i don't really see where that changes my experience of having never been asked about wiring. Sounds like the people being hassled by insurance companies about K&T wiring need to find a new better reputable company.
s
Oh, and BTW, i'll comment all i feel like.

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In Ontario, some insurance companies make a big deal out of K&T, others are more reasonable.
The Electrical Safety Authority is the responsible agency and has published a lot of information regarding K&T wiring in response to insurance company actions within the province.
A favourable inspection by ESA carries a lot of weight with the more reasonable insurers.
Google ESA.
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Excellent point. I have actually bought 2 in the last year that had K&T and although i rewired them, i was never even asked about the wiring. And yes, they did ask when they were built.
s

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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) are: http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?idq90 is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)
http://web.archive.org/web/20040825060154/http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm or http://tinyurl.com/297uk7 is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".
Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you must have better information than Illinois had.
Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but you must have better information than the insurance company had.
I eagerly await your reply.
--
bud--

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well heres the real world discussion of K&T http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=ceb752c2ebf08fc1bbc8d401968362eb3fcd3b0f02818301455c7eeeb952685b&invocationType=keyword_rollover&ie=UTF-8
why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on this topic
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wrote:

well heres the real world discussion of K&T http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery Îb752c2ebf08fc1bbc8d401968362eb3fcd3b0f02818301455c7eeeb952685b&invocationType=keyword_rollover&ie=UTF-8
why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on this topic
We try to stay out of the twilight zone
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery Îb752c2ebf08fc1bbc8d401968362eb3fcd3b0f02818301455c7eeeb952685b&invocationType=keyword_rollover&ie=UTF-8
Repeating: Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation? Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring?
I looked at a few links and didn't find either. Just some opinions based on who knows what.
Where is insurance actuarial data on fires caused by K&T. The insurance company in Maine didn't produce any.
IMHO insurance limitations on K&T are just the latest form of redlining.
Why are electricians on this newsgroup far less paranoid about K&T than you are?
--
bud--

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it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to inspect K&T.
exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?
a bad solder joint could be about to start a fire but be invisible buried behind plaster wall........ the electrician could be on the hook for fire costs, having said it was safe.
my big issue with K&T is the lack of boxes, and underpowering.
typically K&T had one outlet per bedroom. today that leads to tons of extension cords, and they are a definite hazard. I have seen some real hack jobs with extension cords in such rooms......
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

More FUD. Where is your data on fires started by K&T.

There may or may not be boxes. I presume underpowering means not enough outlets.

Not enough outlets is not unique to K&T. If there are not enough outlets add more.
Still missing: Links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation. Links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring.
--
bud--

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wrote:

All connections in properly installed K&T are accessible.

http://www.executive-homeinspections.com/?D @
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On Feb 7, 11:46�am, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

just how, have you ever wqorked on or around K&T apparently not because connections were generally made in walls and latheand plastered over. no boxes at connections in most cases.........
and before you claim i dont know, do note one of the posters troubleshooting this problem reported making a buch of holes in walls looking for a bad connection.
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On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:47:45 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

I did say "properly installed" knob and tube wiring.
I had a beach house with "properly installed" knob and tube wiring and all connections were easily accessible.
Why would you have ANY connections inside a sealed wall unless they were at the site of an outlet? Are you some sort of hack who splices together short lengths of scrap wire to save a small amount of money on materials while wasting an enormous amount of money on labor to do it?
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On Feb 7, 1:02�pm, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

I have seen homes wired with K&T where connections were some distance from lights and outlets. fact is to provide spacing K&T uses they cant be right together, their typical distance must be 6 inches.
so the wires to the device are soldered on near a knob, but no easy way to see the solder job.......
my house is mostly BX it was built in 1950. in the middle of the night i turned the light on to find my lost pillow and got a shower of sparks from the fixture right on the bed. scared me a lot.
upon disection found the insulation to the light socket failed touching a grounded fixture.
needless to say all those fixtures were replaced, this about 10 years ago.
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I've never found ANY connections that weren't in an attic or basement. In fact, there would be no reason to make a connection in a wall behind plaster and lath, any more than there's a reason to do it with romex.
s

just how, have you ever wqorked on or around K&T apparently not because connections were generally made in walls and latheand plastered over. no boxes at connections in most cases.........
and before you claim i dont know, do note one of the posters troubleshooting this problem reported making a buch of holes in walls looking for a bad connection.
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How often were you tearing down walls looking for them?
It was comon for splices to be in the walls. Unless you were tearing the walls down how would you know?
On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:42:11 -0600, "S. Barker"

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I've stripped to studs all the houses i've come in contact with. <g>. Seriously, though, i've stripped out the ones that had K&T as a matter of course.
s

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