Knob and Tube BETA-33

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We balance tires, rotate tires, change oil, grease, tune up, replace tires, replace brake pads, replace light bulbs, wax the exterior, vacuum the carpet, replace wiper blades, replace the windshield when it gets broken or pitted, change air filter, change oil filter, replenish wiper fluid, check and change automatic trans fluid, and probably a hundred other things we do to our automobiles.
But, i've never heard of re-wiring one just because it got old. It's not a viable argument.
s
wrote:

that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does whatever it can to avoid paying claims.
I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised.
why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets replaced on a regular basis?
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some friends got caught up, insurance required replacing K&T, rebuilding a front porch, replacing some bad sections of sidewalk, and installing a railing on outside steps.
its nice you service your vehicles, do you ever replace them?
do you know anyone with a vehicle as old as K&T???????
like i said would some others call state farm and ask?
homeowners insurance has changed a lot in the last 10 years
and those of you with K&T at home resale time you can remember this discussion when you cant sell your home...........
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S. Barker wrote:

Actually the automotive analogy is a good one *for* replacing K&T. Most cloth covered auto wiring is no longer suitable for service and will crumble if disturbed. Granted, that was being phased out by the mid-50's but then again most K&T was installed prior to that. The only thing making it not a perfect argument *for* replacing K&T is that an automotive environment is much harsher on the insulation than is the inside of a wall.
I'm not one to replace things for the sake of replacing them (I did salvage the harness in my '55 STudebaker by judicious patching) but old cloth covered auto harnesses are something to be concerned about. You might find one that is still OK but I would bet that most that still remain will not be so if one disturbs it significantly.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
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(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups - yuck)
This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long time ago, this is what I found:
I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way switches and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.
At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires as 1, 2, and 3.
At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with continuity with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the wires they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the upstairs 3-way as number 4.
At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4 has continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.

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I was trying to find some guidelines by searching the web on the proper way to repair knob and tube. The more I read about it, the less confident I feel about doing anything to it.
If you can safety get a hot and a neutral to the light from somewhere else then it sounds like the light can be fixed.
If your readings are correct, then the electrician made a mistake wiring the lights to begin with.
This sketch sounds like what you have.
http://i26.tinypic.com/nvysuc.jpg
You should connect the (new) neutral to the screw shell of the light. Connect the (new) hot to one of the wires going to one of the switches and the other wire from the other switch to the light.
Maybe someone with some real K&T experience can jump in and offer a better solution or point out a flaw in my logic.
On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 07:08:19 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

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K&T is best replaced few DIYers have the tools and expertise to do it exactly right, and few electricians will do anything to it for liability reasons, plus many insurance companies dont want to insure homes with it.
a electrical system is really a appliance, thats now probably a 100 years old.
how many appliances last a 100 years?
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K&T is best replaced few DIYers have the tools and expertise to do it exactly right, and few electricians will do anything to it for liability reasons, plus many insurance companies dont want to insure homes with it.
a electrical system is really a appliance, thats now probably a 100 years old.
how many appliances last a 100 years?
Yea, that's it, it's kinda like a toaster, or maybe a percolator.... I get it now
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4. In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral. When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but 3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was ever code compliant?]
Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways.
------------- You may have noticed halerb has a fethish about K&T.
--
bud--








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wrote:

Thanks. I'm going to a little more tomorrow to see what I can figure out. At this point, it's just a game -- a puzzle that I want to see if I can figure out.
In the end, I do plan on rewiring the entire house -- either with me doing some (cutting holes and pulling wires) and an electrician doing all of the rest, or with an electrician doing the whole thing.
But, for now, I'm having a good time trying to see if I can find where the disconnect is in the hallway light setup.
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I suspect the problem is a switch rather than a wiring connection failure. but with the connections soldered, buried in the walls it will be hard to find and may be a sign of a lareger problem..........
if a soldered connection failed perhaps more will, and the next one may overheat and cause a fire........
to the naysayersa of replace the K&T I gather you dont believe in maintaing your home.
come time to sell and it may be impossible for the buyer to get homeowners insurance and thus no mortage, effectively killing the sale.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: ...

But it's going to have burned down by tonight, anyway, so what's the difference?
Get off the BS, crap..._IF_ (and that's the proverbial "big if") and when an insurance company refuses to write coverage, it can be fixed then. Despite your BS claims, I've yet to find any indication of any major underwriter that will not write for K&T as a blanket prohibition. They _might_ require an inspection.
I've done enough retrofits from antebellum to WWII boom time frame I've lost count and K&T wiring has _NEVER_ been an inhibition to a sale.
--
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My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new policies for homes with K&T.....
so you wait till home sale time and K&T kills the sale? plus you may not have the bucks to rewire your entire home or pay more......
planned in advance makes rewiring more manegable.
plus rewiring requires access holes in walls and cielings, so you fix up your home, K&T becomes a deal breaker, then you get to fix your home twice.....
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: ...

My search of State Farm the last time you spouted this nonsense corroborated no such thing...
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call a agent and ask...........
please report back and remember others here have reported they couldnt get homeowners or had 6 months to replace it, or lose coverage
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And they won't. Because there is no such criteria from them.
s

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I've never even heard of one requiring an inspection. And I've bought many houses, and most of them have at least some K&T wiring. I wasn't even asked about the wiring. I believe these phantom insurance company stories are just that, stories.
s

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google knob and tube fire risk to confirm I am right.
Homeowners insurance underwriters may refuse to cover it As existing K&T wiring gets ever older, insurance companies may deny coverage due to increased risk. Several companies will not write new homeowners policies at all unless all K&T wiring is replaced or an electrician has certified that the wiring is in good condition.
I have a ton of references if anyone is interested, it appears most homeowners insurance companies today wouldnt insure a home with K&T
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Again, Bullshit. Show in writing ANY company that even asks about wiring.
s

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definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk
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