Knob and Tube BETA-33

[Terry]

Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true)

So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the one going to a power source.

This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going.

[RBM]

Terry, has he been able to determine if he has a hot leg and a neutral leg?

[Terry]

You can find out what I know by reading his comments to this thread

He says no wire is hot at any box, and the light has never worked. He is using an inductance pocket tester. I just learned he has phoned the wires out in the past with a continuity tester.

[RBM]

Under the circumstances, I would abandon the circuit and run new cables to each location

[Don Young]

You seem to have it figured correctly. From the postings, I am not sure whether the OP is missing a hot feed to one of the switches or whether he is missing a neutral feed to the light. These can be verified by connecting a long wire to a hot or neutral in a known working circuit and testing for power between the extension wire and the wires in the problem area.

One common problem with electrical troubleshooting for me is that people tend to say they do or do not have power at or on a certain wire. Power never is present at one wire, only between two wires and you need to know which two wires are being checked. And, of course, using a DVM instead of a test light just confuses the issue even more.

Don Young

[hallerb]

just replace all the wiring, running a new line back to the breaker box

[BETA-33]

Thanks Terry for starting this thread.

I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday. Between now and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a flashlight.

I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from when I was working on it before. But I have to take one more board up to access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that today.

I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested -- start over and run a whole new circuit. But, since it's a puzzle right now, I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle.

[Terry]

Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too.

To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you are removing now, though.

You might get lucky and find an easy fix. How have you been living? :)

[hallerb]

call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring... it might bring a visit by the company but thats better than finding out after a fire

[cai2k]

My homeowner's insurance company already knows I have knob and tube wiring. It was listed on my application for insurance.

[cai2k]

(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups - yuck)

This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long time ago, this is what I found:

I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way switches and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.

At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires as 1,

2, and 3.

At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with continuity with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the wires they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the upstairs

3-way as number 4.

At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4 has continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.

[Terry]

I was trying to find some guidelines by searching the web on the proper way to repair knob and tube. The more I read about it, the less confident I feel about doing anything to it.

If you can safety get a hot and a neutral to the light from somewhere else then it sounds like the light can be fixed.

If your readings are correct, then the electrician made a mistake wiring the lights to begin with.

This sketch sounds like what you have.

You should connect the (new) neutral to the screw shell of the light. Connect the (new) hot to one of the wires going to one of the switches and the other wire from the other switch to the light.

Maybe someone with some real K&T experience can jump in and offer a better solution or point out a flaw in my logic.

[hallerb]

able

- =EF=BF=BD

zle right now,

K&T is best replaced few DIYers have the tools and expertise to do it exactly right, and few electricians will do anything to it for liability reasons, plus many insurance companies dont want to insure homes with it.

a electrical system is really a appliance, thats now probably a 100 years old.

how many appliances last a 100 years?

[dpb]

If they wrote the policy, they cover it...quit the d---'d FUD crap.

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[RBM]

K&T is best replaced few DIYers have the tools and expertise to do it exactly right, and few electricians will do anything to it for liability reasons, plus many insurance companies dont want to insure homes with it.

a electrical system is really a appliance, thats now probably a 100 years old.

how many appliances last a 100 years?

Yea, that's it, it's kinda like a toaster, or maybe a percolator.... I get it now

[hallerb]

today insurance companies go out of their way to not pay off, and some people dont inform their insurers of risks till a fire occurs, then insurance researches the owners activities, and occasionally doesnt pay

[dpb]

Unless the homeowner deliberately conceals a situation, there's no basis for not paying the claim.

You've been afforded the opportunity to previously document a single verifiable case of the above problem.

It is nothing but FUD.

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[RBM]

[hallerb]

shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, so insurance companies now call it flood damage and refuse to pay, saying the flood that went with the storm did the real damage..........

even 10 years ago insurance was dependable, pay the premium, relax they pay.

in my immediate neighborhood a main water line burst, nearly washing away a home. took out basement walls, etc. nearly totaled the home.

the water companies insurance refused to pay because water was shut off within a half hour.

water company is a muncipality, so it cant be sued.

homeowners refused to pay too.

the whole mess is in court, the family had to borrow money from family and friends to stabiilize their home.

years ago such stuff didnt occur..........

now why defend K&T its obsolete, undersized, lacks grounding a basic safety issue,,,,, geez its likely a 100 years old.

in that time how many times has the home got?

a new roof?

been repainted?

new carpeting?

new furnace?

new hot water tank?

how many new cars have owners of that home bought since K&T was new?

whats it cost to replace all the K&T? perhaps 5 grand?

now compare that 5 grand with one new roof............

you know no one really owns a home, since they tend to outlive people.

we are really stewards of probably the most expensive thing we will ever buy.

and homes wear out, and need continious repairs and upgrades.

so why fight new wiring?

perhaps your home is the worst on the street? with broken side walks, roof patched with tarps, and the interior a shambles?

while you proudly say its fine?

maintaing upgrading and taking care of your home pays off big time at home resale time, in faster sale and much more money.

replacing K&T isnt money wasted, its money invested........

[dpb]

[e-mail] wrote: ...

No. (No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.)

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