Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class action suit on this machine!

Ok, comments about LG and Samsung, along with front load economics in general...

If you want to buy a machine that nobody knows how to fix, where the manufacturer has made no effort to educate US servicers in general, where parts are difficult to identify and locate, then LG and Samsung are your best choice. Also, you might want to choose Fisher and Paykel. As far as durability of these brands, they probably differ little from their US counterparts. However, there really is no need to go international. Domestic brands are just fine, and if you really want a F/P style agitator, you can choose the Whirlpool Cabrio which, IIRC, uses F/P technology anyway. Are you mesmerized by steam? It is a gimmick. Nobody will ever know your garment was steamed, even you.

The movement of the appliance industry in general is toward machines that are so highly electronic and highly complicated, that only the largest service outfits will have the deep pockets to offer service on your machine, and the independents will slowly fade away. Let's say you have a $1k washer, and it is broken and no particular component presents itself as the exact problem. Now, which servicer will take the risk to install a $250 board or $375 motor in it to see if they can bring it back to life? No small servicer will stock those parts or take the risk of being wrong. They'll be relegated to the simpler machines, while all the popular ones with all the bells and whistles will be left to the big boys.

Regarding the economics of front loaders, I would agree that there is a very long breakeven point for these machines. Don't buy one for the energy or water savings, unless you live where there is no water. Probably the best reason to buy a front loader is if you want to install it right out there so that your friends and neighbors can see it. They'll be impressed, and you'll feel really good about yourself.

This is my dream, to take my 2k which I would use to buy a front loader set, and buy 3 regular washers, and 3 regular dryers, and then build a laundromat in my home, and do an entire week of laundry in an hour.

Reply to
AE Todd
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Oh, a little more about the F/P...I think that it and the Cabrio will be the next Calypso, but we'll have to wait a few more years to find out. Generally, NSA machines have dubious cleanability profiles, and people say they twist and tear clothing. Typicall NSA machines have greater pump problems. You'll have to decide for yourself to see if it is worth it. Don't forget, NSA machines can have the same mildew/ odor issues as a front loader, since both are low water machines.

Reply to
AE Todd

HAhaha!

Good one. Thanks for the laugh!

Reply to
me

OK..... so what "design" do you feel is the most robust? Do you feel it is still the standard top loader agitator design that had been in use for years? It sound like your are nor sold on front loaders nor or you sold on FP type designs (Cabrio)

Also, what is an "NSA" machine?

Thanks for all your help!

Reply to
me

Ooops.. never mind I know what NSA means now

Reply to
me

In answer to your question, a washer doesn't have to be "robust" to clean your clothes. A Whirlpool washer with a regular agitator, little electronics or other bells and whistles, is just fine. They are easy to repair, service and parts are readily available.

Front loaders have their own repair profile. I am not suggesting that one not buy one, but to accept the idea that those problems can't be avoided just because the machine was expensive; saying to your repairman, "I spent a thousand dollars on this machine and I think it should have lasted longer" won't have much impact, because he doesn't really care.

Reply to
AE Todd

I meant "robust" in term of reliable..... not complicated or fancy

Reply to
me

responding to

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danbernards wrote: Dear Me, (a disgruntled Kenmore 417 purchaser)

Yes, you have reason to complain. As a single, you only do a couple of small/medium loads a week at the most. I have the identical problem. I could hear the bearing going just after the original warranty ceased. My unit was put into service April 2002, I got less than 800 loads before the bearing failed completely, but the failure was gradual, noisier and noisier, water started leaking just in the last year.

Sears dropped the ball on this one. I am going to bunch it and purchase a new one. At 800 loads my cost after the Oregon energy tax credits and the Sears rebate was just $.56/load not counting energy cost, much less than the $3.00/load at the laundromat; nonetheless, a bearing properly engineered and manufactured should last the life of the machine in family service, that is minimally 7500 cycles.

Dan McMinnville, Oregon

snipped-for-privacy@privacy.net wrote:

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Reply to
danbernards

Why is anyone surprised that bearings fail in these machines? I have serious reservations about the adequacy of these bearing arrangements with out taking into account the following The spiders in these machines are manufactured from aluminium alloys, which are capable of being corroded by almost all laundry aids used, including HE detergent, should the required concentrations be reached. The product of this corrosion is aluminium oxide, the same very hard gritty ?stuff? that is the ?grit? on the orange coloured sandpaper. Now most of this aluminium oxide will adhere, very strongly, to the spider: A very small percentage will be dissolved in the ?water? and some will be carried in suspension in the ?water? making a very effective grinding paste. In my opinion the soft lips of the shaft seal stand very little chance once this occurs with the result that the seal fails allowing ?water? into the bearings which destroys the bearings in two ways, the normal corrosion of steel in water and the added destructive power of the ?grit? abrading the bearings.

Many posts on many sites claim that the corrosion of the spiders is due to galvanic action. I do not agree, I believe it is primarily chemical corrosion.

Should the corrosion have been galvanic between the stainless steel drum and the aluminium spider the majority of the corrosion would have been at the junction of the two metals i.e. at the ends of the arms. I have seen no photographs of spiders corroded in such a manner, nor read of any similar descriptions.

Aluminium, and its alloys are corroded when immersed in an aqueous solution with a pH value above about 8.0 or below about 4.0 (nitric acid is a well known exception). All detergents have to be above about 8.0 or they would not work. The Material Safety Data Sheets put out by Proctor and Gamble state that the pH for one of the liquid ?Tides? is 8.0 and for one of the ?Tide? powdered detergents as 11.0. Bleach, (sodium hypochlorite) is also very corrosive to aluminium. I should add that for corrosion of the spider to take place these levels are considerably above the levels found in a washing machine during the wash/rinse phases of the cycle.

Sodium carbonate (washing soda) and sodium percarbonate found in some laundry aids (Affresh and Oxi-Clean [powder]) are also corrosive to aluminium, as is borax, provided the required concentrations are reached.

I believe the mechanics of the corrosion are as follows. Even after the fastest spin small quantities of water will remain on the shaft and towards the centre of the spider. Any recesses in the spider close to the centre will aggravate this situation. This water will contain ?contaminants?, unused detergents and other laundry aids used, soil from the laundry, products of the reactions between the laundry aids used and the soil from the laundry, chemicals contained in the tap water used and the products of any reactions between these chemicals, the soil and the laundry aids used. Should sufficient of these ?contaminants? be present the pH of the mixture can, as evaporation takes place, rise to a level where corrosion will take place.

Corroded spiders can be seen at: -

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a LG spider
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For information on galvanic corrosion there is a very good paper at: -
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For information on chemical corrosion of aluminium (or ?micro galvanic corrosion as the author calls it, I grew up calling it ?pitting corrosion) there is an informative paper at:

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Reply to
biguggy

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This a rather old thread to which you are responding, but I'll throw in my 2 cents' worth.

We've had ours for about 9 years, averaging two or three loads a week, and it's been noisy for the last several years. When it was still in warranty the controller failed and was replaced free, and I asked the service guy about the reports I had heard of bearing failure. He said it was usually caused by using non-HE detergent and that replacement of the whole drum assembly was a 2-person 4-hour job -- no bearings available separately -- costing big bucks. I have since read that bearings are available but not from Sears. If ours quits I may still try to fix it myself, as we have the dryer stacked above it and that dryer might not fit a different washer.

My major gripe concerning this washer was that when it was delivered they took the shipping braces away with them although the user manual says to keep them in case the machine needs to be moved again -- and when we did move I had to *buy* a new set of shipping braces. I mentioned this to our friendly Sears person in our new location, and she said not leaving them behind was common practice and that I probably was the only person who had ever read the part in the manual about keeping them.

Perce

Reply to
Percival P. Cassidy

responding to

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biguggy wrote:

I know it is an elderly thread but it is still, in my opinion, a valid subject. To my knowledge Sears were still selling machines with the same part number inner tub and spiders in May of 2010 as the ones sold in 2001. So the same failures can be expected to keep occurring for a while yet. Assuming that you have a ?Kenmore? 417 or 970 (the Canadian variant), or a Frigidaire, or even a GE (the same machine was marketed, with minor differences but the ?guts? were/are the same by all three companies). For my two cents worth, if I were you I would get at your machine before more damage is done. The more the bearings ?wear? the greater will be the ?run-out? of the inner tub with respect to the outer tub. This will allow the screws securing the baffles or vanes in the inner drum to score, perhaps to perforation, the outer drum. Additionally even if your spider currently has little or no corrosion it is likely to be ?toast? because the sleeve on which the shaft seal runs is likely now scored or grooved to such an extend that it would be a very unwise to re-use it with a new seal. A cheaper repair for you, should you have access to a Sears parts warehouse in Canada is to get the ?tub kit?, part number 970 134453200 for C$229.00 (last quoted to me in March of this year) plus S&H plus taxes, which includes inner and outer drums complete with spider, seals, bearings and pulley. Sears at the same time quoted me C$259.00 for just the inner tub and spider, go figure. Unfortunately the ?tub kit? is not available in the USA.

Reply to
biguggy

...

...

Went thru this here just a couple days ago--Sears _MAKES_ nothing; they own and retail several brands manufactured on contract for them; Kenmore and Craftsman the two largest...

Reply to
dpb

You are quite correct. The subject of this thread is the 'Kenmore 417' and I was just pointing out that the same basic machines, all built by 'Frigidaire (Electrolux), are/were marketed, by Sears, Frigidaire and GE. The majority of the parts being interchangeable

Reply to
biguggy

My model 418.431xxxxx spider assy failed. Can only repair by replacing entire drum assy. Item 16 in the installation manual and parts list. Roughly $350. You can buy just the spider.

According to page 2 of the sears guide that came with washer states unlimited lifetime warranty on the steel basket drum.. Which is according sears documentation is one unit.

I going to sears warranty to force the issue for and entire assy or sell me the spider itself. Can purchase spider in UK with warning its not intended for USA models. Garbage protection I bet to keep prices up here.

Wish me luck.

Reply to
sylliaads

replying to biguggy, Jay wrote: You missed one point about galvanic corrosion of the alloy spiders. The corrosion is occurring where the aluminum spider is attached to the mild steel shaft at the center of the spider and not the stainless drum. Had the spindle been constructed of the same grade stainless, the al alloy might not fail at all. I am sure that the spindle is mild steel after reusing it when I fabricated a new spider for my machine. My new spider is entirely constructed of stainless with the exception of the reused spindle.

Reply to
Jay

You should have bought a Speed Queen. I repair washers and dryers and Speed Queen is the best. No I don't work work for Speed Queen.

Reply to
Molly Brown

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 21:49:38 -0800 (PST), Molly Brown wrote in

How does Maytag compare to Speed Queen and Kenmore in your opinion?

Reply to
CRNG

Nobody cares what you think. Besides, the message you're replying to is nearly a decade old.

Reply to
Gordon Shumway

replying to me, Jim Morrow wrote: True, a class action suit is needed for this model. Mine was 2-3 years old the

1st time it failed and it was from a known issue with the bottom shocks failing which caused a chain of failures. As of today it simply stopped working, finis5 a load and started another only it did not work, dead nothing.
Reply to
Jim Morrow

For those still looking to repair their HE3 Kenmore/Whirlpool Front Load Washer. I was able to purchase a spider in good shape for about $200; the bearings, which turned out to *not* need replaced, I bought from this guy for a decent price in 2019. $75.

These are replacement bearings, not MFR; but guaranteed to work, supply model number, and are also way over specifications and superior bearings.

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So for under $300 I'm back up and running and will be using Home Made Washer soap:
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I don't know if it will 'really work' but after looking at my spider from using cheap plain detergent (1/4c) I'll give it a try.

I got 14 years out of my washer before needing repair; but if truth be known, I think it started having an issue about 5 years ago. We started running 1/2 loads about then.

Reply to
cyberchipz

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