Just HOW does one clean a paint brush?

[Robert Macy]

This is crazy!

In our home we moved into there was left over 2.5 gal of Dunne Edwards Exterior/Interior flat the construction peole used everywhere on the interior of our home. Needless to say, it has been useful for touching up areas after joint compounding and smoothing out their 'flaws'. This paint blends in the middle of large surface areas invisibly [remember, home was not lived in, but two year old spray paint job] To do touch up I dipped some paint into a cut off 2 liter soda bottle bottom and painted away using a pre-rinsed [damp] brush [selecting any of several bristle brushes]. When finished, simply ran water on brush until clear, then would use liquid handsoap, maybe 3 times. Rinse, straighten the bristles out and set down for the next time.

All, went well, until I went to HD and got a gallon of self-primer Glidden custom color matching - very good color match. This paint was for shelving, the guy recommended semi, because it was harder and better for shelving. I insisted on flat. They were out of flat, but since cost would be $26/gal for semi, and only $19/gal for flat, I was happy when he gave me semi for $19.

Ok. used the paint on shelving boards, again using 'damp' brush, first coat over raw particle board [also from HD] the paint soaked up into the wood, got thick, well expected that, but went on well. Didn't like the brush strokes left [Dunne Edwards didn't leave brush strokes] but shelving - who cares? Went to clean up the brush, and the first thing I noticed was that it was full of 'cottage cheese' crumbs! sand sized crumbs in the brush, solid. Ok clean up, until clear. Wash three times with soap solution until really clean, straighten bristles and set out for the next day.

The next day the brush was hard as a rock! What?! With more water and 'special' cleaning solvent I got the brush to become flexible enough for the next days work.

Now, the second coat, which to me should not take as much paint, DID take paint! and worse, started drying again way too fast. We're talking lay down a loaded brush line across the shelf and stroke into the painted area and before you can move to the next brush width, the paint gets 'gummy' and does not feather the brush strokes in well at all. [Note, I used to have similar problems with cheap latex paint from local discount outlet back in 70;s when latex first came out, but solved the problem by simply spraying gently with Easy Off Window Cleaner. You could even go back more than six hours later, spray, and touch up paint - like brush out that run forming you didn't notice earlier! But, alas, Easy Off discontinued this miracle product.]

Now cleaned up brush and its getting worse and worse! To me the brush is ruined, full of sludge, mutliple bristles are being 'glued' together by the crumbly paint. What the heck is going on?

Actually more questions than simply how to clean a brush:

1. how to properly clean a brush
2. is there something I can add to latex to slow down the drying time. I think 30 seconds is a bit too short.
3. is there something that removes/prevents that sludge build up in the brush?

With Dunne Edwards, I had no reluctance to touch up small areas any time I saw one. But with this Glidden product and ruining brushes; I'm hesitant to take on small tasks and am forced to plan, waiting until I accumulate enough to do the work, throw the brush away, and hope no run forms.

Any help, knowledgeable people?

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, I am not a fan of painting. I never used brush on a particle boards. Roller works better. I also use brush comb. Also I often use pads for touching up. I watched pros how they clean their brushes which gave some pointers.

[DerbyDad03]

Regardless of what brand of paint I use, I always use the same method for cleaning - assuming it's a soap and water clean-up.

It starts with warm water and Dawn dish soap.

Actually I should say it starts with a decent brush. I been a fan of the Purdy line of brushes available from the Home Depot. Most of the ones I've been using for years have the original cardboard sleeve. It is recommended that the brushes be stored in the original cardboard sleeve so that the shape is held constant as they dry. I built a "nail board" in my shop and the brushes are wrapped and hung immediately after washing. OK, immediately after being shake-dried.

I have a 4' length of garden hose with a spray nozzle that I keep by my utility sink. It's great for washing coolers, buckets, dogs and yes, paint brushes. I blast them with the spray nozzle set on jet to get the paint out from deep within the bristles. If blasting doesn't get it all out because some of it has dried, I rest the bristles on the center divider of the sink and scrub them with a nail brush. I'll even use my fingernails to scrap paint off of the bristles on the outside of the brush if need be. You have to have a quality brush if you expect it to stand up to this kind of abuse without the bristles falling out or getting all bent out of shape.

Once I am satisfied that the brush is clean, I give it few sharp shakes to get most of the water out, reshape the bristles by hand, wrap it up in it's cardboard sleeve and hang it on it's nail. Other than the handle, I have some brushes that you would think are brand new if judged solely by the bristles.

I know my time consuming method works because I've seen the condition of the same brand of brushes when my wife or son borrows one and then "cleans" it. I've thrown away brushes, or saved them for junk jobs, after they've ruined them by cleaning them improperly.

On the rare occasions when a brush I've cleaned is a little stiff when I open the cardboard, it only because the bristles are slightly stuck together and a simple flexing of the bristles softens them up.

[Robert Macy]

I used to work for a professional house painter, back when a brush was FAST! During a job, he simply stored any brush in the freezer overnight and only cleaned once when done. His brushes were HEAVY when loaded with paint and cost in today's dollars $100+ but he could paint a whole house one coat in one day, then do the second coat the next day. with a lot less prep required than for spraying.

Of course he was a 'true' painter - covered in paint! As he watched me dip my brush, wipe the brush, and then paint and paint a small area, he used to laugh at me and ask, "Why don't you paint the house just once?" and "Why do you put the paint back in the bucket and not up on the house?" All good advice actually. His fast technique was to dip his brush [no wipe off excess]. draw an X on a spot, and feather in with a single stroke, and move on. Three strokes to do about one square foot, as he moved along the house. hmmm 2500 sqft as slow as

10 seconds a sqft, comes to 4 hours. seems about right, whole house one day. He had ME do the tedious trim.

[Norminn]

clipped

When I clean brushes, I squeeze out as much paint as I can into newspaper....squoosh it, stand on it. Then I run warmish/tepid water onto/into the bristles....squoosh bristles on bottom of sink under running water. Then I work Dawn into the bases of the bristles and let it soak for an hour or two....flex bristles just enough to work the Dawn as far as possible into the base. Then I rinse and rinse and rinse, parting the bristles and running water through entirely. Finish off with hot water, a shake or two and HANG the brush to dry after molding the hot bristles into shape.

With your mess, as a last resort, I'd use some semi-paste paint remover, work it in as above, remove and wash with mineral spirits. It may puff up poly bristles but the brush may still be good enough for the junk paint yer' using :o) I'll wait until all-in-one primer/paint has been around 20 years or so, but I'll be dead by then so what's the use :o)

I use semi alkyd paint for kitchen, bath, trim, doors and any surface that takes some wear. Actually easier (for me) to use a good bristle brush and clean it properly. If I'm using crap paint (leftover flat latex tinted with hobby acryllic tube paint) I use a chip brush or small sprayer for odd little craft projects. Otherwise, it is Ben Moore. I tried Behr semi once and found it to be total garbage for coverage. Painting with Sher Williams semi alkyd exterior is almost as good as sex....I hope my husband doesn't read this :o)

Your hand soap might have had something to do with the results.

[Douglas C. Neidermeyer]

Next post: clarity, brevity, focus ;-)

[Vic Smith]

Yeah, but crazy. Just throw away the junk paint. There's no mystery here, and a 5-year-old can clean a paintbrush. If the paint didn't dry on it.

[dpb]

On 10/3/2012 9:31 AM, Robert Macy wrote: ...

I've never had any problem w/ Glidden paints in the past but I've not used any of the primer/finish products from any vendor, either, so I've no idea whether that might have some bearing...

I can't fathom why one can't simply clean a brush unless you're using something that is reacting unfavorably either as part of the cleaning/prep work or in the cleaning itself...

I'd suggest a consultation w/ the Glidden rep's on your symptoms...

--

[Robert Macy]

palmolive dish soap

[Robert Macy]

tried that, got crap answers, with ALL kinds of assumptions.

[Robert Macy]

Good idea. Will try calling them. HD offers to replace paint AND brush. But, told me they go through a LOT of quantity with no one else complaining.

I'm going to try something next time, using distilled water instead of our well water.

Anecdote: I recently also had trouble with HD's type S mortar crumbling after setting up. actually use a brush and 'sand' it off. Except. last time, out of the same sack mixed a small, very dry batch. When I went to use it, sprayed distilled water on each handful making very wet and patching some stucco. When that set up it was SOLID with no hairlinecracks.

Wonder if 'hard water' from well is reacting.

It's also possible the Dunne Edwards had something added for spraying that made it work better.

However, just noticed that the paint that dryied so fast while painting is still slightly gummy?!

[Smitty Two]

I was waiting alongside you for the knowledgable people to show up. Here's my ignorant guess: The glue in the particle board is water soluble. That's what stiffened your bristles.

Hey, that would make a good expression for being annoyed: "That really stiffens my bristles!"

[hrhofmann]

The fast drying is due to the particle board. The OP should try a small sample on a piece of wallbord/sheetrock that has been previously painted, I'll bet the drying time doubles at least. It also sounds like he never fully cleaned the brush the first time he cleaned it. I always work liquid laundry detergent into the brush and ferrule as part of the cleaning.

[dadiOH]

Here's what I do...

1. Hang brush in a can of water covering a bit of the ferrule. Note I said "hang".

1. After an hour or so, most of the paint will have fallen out. Remove brush and rinse well in clean water. Squeeze from the ferrule down.

2. Wash with Boraxo, squeezing from ferrule down.

1. Thoroughly rinse to remove Boraxo squeezing - you guessed it - from the ferrule down. Filling a deep container and surging the brush up and down will help.

2. Examine the bristles especially just under the ferrule. If they are clean, smooth bristles and hang the brush to dry. If they aren't clean, go to some number above.

Flotrol.

No paint dries in 30 seconds. Whatever you are painting may suck up the water in the paint so it seems dry but it isn't. I suggest you toss the "self priming" paint (all paint is) and use primer.

To prevent it, clean the brush thoroughly. To remove it, use "Brush Cleaner", available at any hardware store.

[Norminn]

Which assumptions are you assuming to be wrong? After rereading your post, I have surmised that the problem is not your brush or how you clean it, but the wrong primer for particle board (possibly). PB has water soluble glue and the water based paint dissolved some glue (along with fine wood particles?). Oil-based primer would probably be better choice.

[nestork]

Robert:

I think I found out why the Easy Off window cleaner worked well for touching up dry paint, and I've got a guess as to what that "cottage cheese" stuff was.

_________________________________________________________________

1. What was in that window cleaner that made it work well on latex paint?

I think Easy Off Window Cleaner is still available as Easy Off Glass Cleaner. I think they just changed the name.

I downloaded the MSDS sheet for Easy Off GLASS Cleaner (rather than Easy Off Window Cleaner):

and it's got a solvent commonly called PnB in it. The MSDS sheet says it has 2.5 to 10 percent PnB in it, 10 to 20 percent ethyl alcohol and the rest would be water (which doesn't have to be listed on the MSDS because it's not a potential safety hazard).

That MSDS sheet calls one of the constituents of the glass cleaner "2-Propanol, 1-butoxy-", but it also gives it's CAS number as 5131-66-8, and if you simply Google CAS 5131-66-8 you find out that it's a common industrial solvent called propylene glycol n-butyl ether, or PnB for short.

'5131-66-8 | CAS DataBase'

(There are different chemical naming conventions so a chemical can be called many different names, so the CAS system was developed to assign a numerical code to each chemical so that different kinds of scientists that use different naming conventions can all talk about the same chemical by just specifying it's Chemical Assay System, or CAS number. Google the CAS number and you find all of that chemical's aliases.)

All of the major chemical companies make PnB and sell it under their own trade names. Dow has Dowanol, Arco has Arcosol, BASF has Propasol, etc. If you can't find Easy Off GLASS Cleaner, then look under "Chemicals" in your yellow pages phone directory and phone around to find out who sells PnB in your area, and who they sell it to. The company that purchases it will hopefully give you some if you toss a $10 bill in that company's Christmas Party Fund. According to Google, Wal-Mart and Staples sell Easy Off Glass Cleaner.

The PnB is important because PnB is also used as a coalescing solvent in latex paints.

So, spraying some PnB dissolved in water on dried latex paint would soften the paint, and allow it to self level again as the PnB and water evaporated.

(read the PS below to find out what PnB (or any coalescing solvent) does in a latex paint)

______________________________________________________________

1. What was that cottage cheeze stuff?

Next time, don't use any detergent when washing out your brush. What I'm thinking is that those blobs of cottage cheeze were the coalescing solvent in your primer/paint mixing with the detergent you used to clean the brush with.

Latex paints have water soluble coalescing solvents in them, and detergents are also soluble in water. Both are soluble in water only because one end of the solvent or detergent molecule is polar and is attracted to polar water molecules.

What I'm thinking is that the water soluble ends of the solvent molecules were attracted to the water soluble ends of the detergent molecules and the result was something that had the NON-water soluble ends of those molecules sticking out on both sides, thereby making stuff that was insoluble in water.

Maybe try buying a new (but inexpensive) paint brush (with no cottage cheeze in it to begin with) and paint something with that same primer/paint, and then wash the brush out thoroughly without using any detergent.

(I'm also presuming that this was softened water from your city's water supply system and not hard water from a well that you were using to clean the brush.)

_______________________________________________________________

PS: Why do you need an industrial solvent in latex paint?

Welcome to Latex Paint 101: Latex paints don't have any rubber tree sap in them. Latex paints are a SLURRY (solids suspended in liquid) of tiny hard particles of clear plastic (called "binder resins"), coloured solid particles (called "coloured pigments") and white, clear or transluscent solid particles (called "extender pigments") suspended in a solution of a low volatility solvent (called a "coalescing solvent" or "coalescing agent") dissolved in water. So five things: three kinds of hard particles suspended in a solution of a solvent dissolved in water.

(There are also chemical additives in latex paints like mildewcides and defoamers, and but let's just ignore those. They don't play any roll in what the coalescing solvents do. )

When you spread latex paint on the wall, the first thing that happens is that the water evaporates, and the tiny plastic binder resins find themselves surrounded by that coalescing solvent at an ever increasing concentration. The coalescing solvent dissolves (kinda) those plastic binder resins, making them soft and sticky. The adhesion of the paint to the substrate occurs when the binder resins are soft and sticky.

The same force of surface tension that causes tiny droplets of water to coalesce into large rain drops in clowds then takes over and causes each soft sticky binder resin to stick to and pull on it's neighbors. The result is that all those tiny plastic resins "coalesce" to form a continuous soft film sticking to the substrate with the coloured and extender pigments suspended inside that film very much like the raisins in raisin bread. The coloured pigments give the paint film it's colour and the amount and coarseness of the extender pigments determine how rough or glossy the paint film dries to.

As the clear plastic binder resins coalesce into a solid continusous film, you no longer have gazillions of plastic/water interfaces (which previously reflected and refracted light like miniature prisms). Your eye sees light of all different colours as the colour "white", so as the clear binder resins coalesce to form a film, the amount of white light coming from the drying paint diminishes, and so the paint appears to darken as it dries. That is, latex paints darken as they dry for exactly the same reason that snow loses it's white colour as it melts to form water.

Then, the coalescing solvent evaporates from the paint film, filling the room with that freshly painted smell. And, as the coalescing solvent evaporates from the soft, sticky plastic film, that clear plastic hardens back up again to the same hardness as the original plastic binder resins were when the paint was still in the can.

[Robert Macy]

Know that. Did that. Made NO difference. Wish it did, but didn't.

[Robert Macy]

yes, that's why I was surprised when the brush became 'ruined'

Also, that is why I gave the detailed description of the cleaning process to let people know that the process was correct, resutlts were wrong.

[Robert Macy]

Great list of instructions!

I misremembered what the pro painter I worked for used to do with his brushes. For overnight, he simply placed his paint brush in the paint container. [even down into a gallon bucket] In the morning he'd simply wipe off the handle and start working. For longer term storage, he put the brush in the freezer.

I checked with HD, and asked them for a flattening agent, and they recommended flotrol also.

Why Boraxo? How is it different than Palmolive dishwashing soap?

I did indeed start putting the brush in water overnight. Forgot that paint uses oxygen to cure, so the air in the water still makes the paint coagulate, but at least with water it's pretty loose stuff.

Brush cleaner...hate adding costs, but if simplifies worth it. And from experience Jasco and such do a trip to the brush anyway.

With regard to drying time, the paintgot sticky instantly so feathering in was not possible, however the paint seemed still slightly tacky the next morning approx 12 hours later. I'm leaning towards thinking that the paint was not completely cured and reacted with the second coat. so I'm trying an experiment to wait 3 days and see what painting a cured paint layer is like.

[Robert Macy]

Being terminally cheap....

Yes, very expensive: cost me time - which I can't get back. and reputation - which is pretty much swiss cheesed now anyway.