I've never used map gas for sweating copper and brass. My understanding is that it is much hotter so is it okay for 1/2" and
3/4" copper fittings? Can I use the same flame adjuster from the propane tank on the map gas tank? Any other advice working with map gas? Thanks.
I believe you need a different head for MAP and I am not sure it would be the best choice for ½ inch fittings. I may be a tad too much.
Propane is fine for 1/2 copper fittings - at least in my limited experience. It only takes like 20 seconds to heat a joint up - maybe 30 tops. That's nothing. When you don't know much about soldering pipes, like myself, it helps having a lower flame temp - too much heat and the joint is ruined before you even get the solder on it.
I use mapp for 1/2 lines, it just heats faster.
you do need a different torch head, oddly enough mine mapp is non adjustable for flame control. home depot doesnt carry a adjustable one
-------------------------------- I use the same torch for both. It seems to work out okay. What is the the difference?
I would guess they each require a different gas/air mixture for ideal operation.
MAPP gas is made by combining liquefied petroleum gas with Methylacetylene-Propadiene. MAPP gas burns hotter than propane. IIRC, propane is close to 4000 degrees, while MAPP is about 5300.
You need a certain amount of heat to properly sweat a joint. If you use propane on a 1/2" fitting, you can get there. With the lead free solder, you need a bit more heat so MAPP gas willl get you there faster, expecialy on larger joints. While it is possible to overheat a joint, if the flame is hotter, you merely hold the torch a bit further away and heat it for less time.
Your repeated posts here about leaky plumbing suggest that it does not, in fact, "work out okay".
MAPP is a *lot* hotter than propane.
That's correct.
I've never used it on 1/2", but it works fine on 3/4". I don't see any reason why it wouldn't on 1/2" -- just be careful not to overheat the joint. It takes only a brief exposure to a MAPP flame to heat a 3/4" joint enough to flow solder into it. I never timed it, but my guess is that it's on the order of eight to ten seconds.
No. MAPP will not burn properly with a propane torch head.
If you only have a small number of joints to solder, on 1/2 and 3/4 pipe, and you already own a propane torch, there's not really much point in buying a MAPP torch.
OTOH, if you're doing several dozen joints, or working with 1" or larger pipe, go with MAPP. You won't regret it. You can get the work done in a small fraction of the time that it takes with propane.
MAPP is particularly useful when working with lead-free solder, which has a higher melting point than conventional tin-lead solder. Sometimes, it seems like that stuff takes forever to melt, when using a propane torch.
For anyone who does not already own a torch, and is trying to decide between propane and MAPP, my advice is to go with MAPP. The MAPP torch costs about $18 to $20 more, but IMO it's well worth it in the time saved. The gas costs more per bottle, too, but I suspect that's probably a wash in the long run, because you don't need to use nearly as much MAPP to heat a fitting as you do propane; you may even come out ahead in that respect with MAPP.
Get a Bernz-o-matic TS4000 torch kit to use with MAPP. Very convenient trigger start so no fussing lighting the torch or finding a place to put it down safely (while on) for a minute. Just squeeze the trigger and it's on, let go and it's off. I use my TS4000 with MAPP for everything from 1/2" and 3/4" plumbing to starting charcoal to crusting creme brulees.
Pete C.
You may also be able to burn propane in the MAPP torch. I have a Turner "swirl torch" that will burn either fuel; there's a regulator adjustment you make when changing fuels. I find that it produces more heat from propane than a regular propane torch, though not as much as when burning MAPP. I tend to do copper pipe soldering using propane in the swirl torch.
There was one time recently when I wished I'd switched to MAPP: I was soldering a 1/2" side branch into a 3/4" tee. There was a brass valve on the 1/2" pipe already, and the 3/4" tee had a brass valve on one side and a pressure regulator on the other side, so plenty of mass to suck heat away from the joint. And there was a slow drip of water into the joint, which was continually being turned into steam. Despite all this, the propane *did* get it hot enough to solder - it just took a while.
Dave
True. But many MAPP torches will do well with propane when you don't need as much heat. I only buy MAPP-compatible torches, even if I mostly use them with propane.
Someone mentioned ruining a joint due to too much heat. What exactly happens? Does the copper just turn black and not adhere to the solder?
I've done it... I think you ruin the flux so it is not effective in preventing the copper from being oxidized, as it normally would be from the heat.
Pretty much, you burn out the flux and start to oxidize the surface. MAPP get hotter faster so you have to know when to put the solder to the joint and then take the heat away. Any torch can over heat a joint, and even natural gas can be used to braze with if you have the right setup with oxygen.
I've found to touch the solder to the joint from the very first instant when I apply heat. When the joint is cold, it won't do anything. Finally the joint hits the magic temperature, and the solder flows.
My early mistake was to heat the fitting too hot, and then apply the solder too late. I always got a pinhole leak. Now, I apply the solder from the first instant.
Mapp gas works nicely for water copper soldering, but propane is just fine.
MAPP burns leaner than propane in a given torch due to lower given volume of air needed to burn a given volume of gas fuel. MAPP can cause bad oxidation, especially if used with a torch not rated/intended for use with MAPP.
Also, it is possible to overheat a torch with MAPP if the torch is not rated for use with MAPP.
Just to make things a bit more confusing, there is even an "intermediate fuel" (my words), less common, sold with a few torches and known as propylene. It burns leaner and typically hotter in a given torch than propane, but richer and typically less hot than MAPP in a given torch than MAPP. A few torches are rated for both propane and propylene but not MAPP. Torches rated for both propane and MAPP should handle propylene just fine, just don't go kablooey when using propylene with a torch rated for MAPP and propane but not certified for propylene if a big legal budget is stacked against you. Keep in mind that in the USA the usual retail-available torches tend to be subject to UL approval, and such approval is conditional upon use with specific fuels that the torches are approved for use with.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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