Is it possible to properly install ice and water shield up a wall without removing siding?

[jaynews]

I'm being told by a roofer that he has the ability to install 6 inches of i ce and water shield up a wall, behind the siding, without removing any sidi ng. He says he uses GAF ice and water shield. The plan is to put ice an d water shield on the deck of the roof and also install it 6 inches up the wall and then install the step flashing along that roof/wall.

Again, he claims he can install the ice and water shield 6 inches up the wa ll, and underneath both the siding and tar paper, without removing any sidi ng. Is it REALLY possible to do this without removing any siding, and is t his the correct way of doing things?

The goal here is to prevent leakage where the wall meets the roof, due to ice damming, when next winter arrives.

Thanks,

Jay.

[trader_4]

ice and water shield up a wall, behind the siding, without removing any si ding. He says he uses GAF ice and water shield. The plan is to put ice and water shield on the deck of the roof and also install it 6 inches up th e wall and then install the step flashing along that roof/wall.

wall, and underneath both the siding and tar paper, without removing any si ding. Is it REALLY possible to do this without removing any siding, and is this the correct way of doing things?

o ice damming, when next winter arrives.

The questions I'd ask him are:

There are typically nails in the siding? How are you going to get the prod uct past the nails? I guess he could pull the lower nails.

Ice/water shield is sticky on the back, you pull off paper and then apply it. How is he going to slip a sticky product up behind the siding? Maybe he won't remove the backside for the portion he's going to slip under the siding, that might work.

Even step flashing, you have the same problem, you can't slide it up with nails in the way. I had to remove my siding when doing a major repair to do it right. I fooled around with it for awhile, trying to figure out an effective way to avoid it, but finally gave in.

[jaynews]

He believes the tar paper on the side of the building is stapled, and he sh ould be able to somehow remove the staples (but still not understanding how he could do this without removing the siding, since there is very little s pace to work with).

Yeah, I suppose leaving the backing of the ice/water shield might work if i t were successfully tucked underneath the tar paper that is underneath the siding, but not sure I'm buying it. He will be lucky if he gets new step flashing successfully installed. I don't really have a choice in who I'm u sing, since management already made this decision, but the repair should be interesting to watch.

oduct past the nails? I guess he could pull the lower nails.

[John G]

ice and water shield up a wall, behind the siding, without removing any si ding. He says he uses GAF ice and water shield. The plan is to put ice and water shield on the deck of the roof and also install it 6 inches up th e wall and then install the step flashing along that roof/wall.

wall, and underneath both the siding and tar paper, without removing any si ding. Is it REALLY possible to do this without removing any siding, and is this the correct way of doing things?

o ice damming, when next winter arrives.

*What kind of siding?

[jaynews]

Horizontal wood siding that was put on around 10 years ago.

The original plan was that the roofer would remove siding and then put the ice and water shield up a foot, but he claims it can't be done without crac king the siding, and says he is having trouble locating matching siding mat erial, and claims even if he does the whole siding would need to be redone. There is a lower-level roof where the roof meets the wall, and the same thing on the upper level, so siding would've needed to be removed at the b ottom of the lower level wall as well as near the top of the wall, but not the very top.

Now he claims removing siding would add as much at $3800 to the job because once he gets involved with removing siding he feels he would have to remov e all the siding and replace it with new siding, but management doesn't wan t to do pay for this.

[HerHusband]

Hi Jay,

It might be possible:

1. IF there are no nails in the lower 6", or they can be removed without seriously damaging the siding.
2. IF the siding can be pulled away from the wall enough to slip the membrane behind the siding.
3. IF there is a gap between the siding and the roof deck (there should be at least an inch or two) to allow the membrane to be slipped up under the siding.

The protective plastic covering the adhesive backing would need to be left in place behind the siding, or pulled out once the membrane is in place. Difficult, but doable.

Assuming these conditions can all be met in your situation, it would probably be possible to slip the membrane under the siding. Especially if they work with smaller pieces near the wall. You may not get adhesion to the wall behind the siding, but that shouldn't be a big issue on a vertical wall.

Slipping rigid step flashing behind the siding will probably be more difficult than slipping in the flexible membrane. That kind of depends on how much gap you have between the roof and siding, or if the bottom of the wall is exposed so the flashing can be slid up along the wall from the bottom.

In an ideal world it would be best to remove siding above the roof. But there's probably a way to work within the existing structure if you have to.

Good luck,

Anthony Watson

[trader_4]

I said the same thing yesterday. But after thinking about it a bit more, there is another aspect. There is a point to that adhesive backing. It's self sealing so that when roofing nails go through it, it seals back up again. If you slide it up under the siding without removing the backing, then reinstall siding nails, those nail will not be sealed. Also, if it's put down the normal way, let's say there is some small compromised spot where water can get in. Any water can only get to that one little spot. Install it without taking off the backing and the water can travel anywhere behind it.

When I did my work, one of the problems was that the siding didn't have the proper 3/4" or so clearance above the roof deck, the left it too long, so the ends had started to rot. By taking it off, I was able to remedy that too.

The other side of the equation is that when doing roofing work, so much is involved, it's expensive work, that it's usually better to make sure you do it right the first time, instead of taking chances. Especially if they've had problems with ice damming in that roof before...... One aspect of it would be whether they really need to remove all the siding or not, ie can they just remove one row. The owners could get an opinion from a good carpenter/siding guy. The roofers may just be lazy, set in their ways, and don't want to do it and maybe the carpenter will for a reasonable fee.

[jaynews]

What happens if the existing step-flashing were nailed to the wall? Will they try to cut the existing step flashing rather than remove it and then s lip both ice/water sheild and new step flashing underneath with part of the old stop flashing still there? That's what I'm now afraid they may try t o do, but I will find out when they start the work. Currently they remov ed the shingles and have a tarp over my roof, and the old flashing is still there, and that's why I'm suspecting they nailed the old aluminum flashing to the side wall when it was installed. My job was stopped because they w ere trying to locate matching siding, and when they come back they are goin g to try without removing siding, but only go up 6 inches instead of what I really wanted wish was 12 inches.

[trader_4]

l they try to cut the existing step flashing rather than remove it and then slip both ice/water sheild and new step flashing underneath with part of t he old stop flashing still there? That's what I'm now afraid they may try to do, but I will find out when they start the work.

That's another good question which puts doubt on the whole thing. Now that you mention it, I think that was the very problem I had too. I think not only were there siding nails, but the step flashing was also nailed to the wall. Actually, it should not be. It should only be nailed to the roof deck. It ain't going nowhere. And if you do it that way, have a 3/4 - 1" gap where the siding ends, then in the future you might be able to put new step flashing in without removing the siding. Some roofers try to re-use the old step flashing, not a good idea IMO.

Currently they removed the shingles and have a tarp over my roof, and the old flashing is still there, and that's why I'm suspecting they nailed the old aluminum flashing to the side wall when it was installed.

Bingo. Sure sounds that way. And the fact that it's still there, I'd say it's very likely it's going to stay there.

My job was stopped because they were trying to locate matching siding, and when they come back they are going to try without removing siding, but onl y go up 6 inches instead of what I really wanted wish was 12 inches.

Six inches is plenty. Actually 4 is enough. Water should never be above that.

[HerHusband]

Sorry, I missed that, I just caught Jays message last night.

The membrane should still seal around the siding nail, that's more of a function of the stretchy membrane than the adhesive that holds it to the roof.

Still, I can't picture it being much of an issue on a wall. Most siding nails won't have membrane behind them anyway.

Also, I doubt the siding nails will be driven any closer than 3-4" above the roof deck. If the water gets deep enough to reach those nails, there are probably other issues that need dealth with (ventilation under the roof).

True, but the majority of the membrane should be stuck down to the roof, and the membrane is really just a backup protection anyway. The step flashing is the primary line of defense at the roof/wall intersection. Assuming there's some kind of overhang above that wall, it should limit how much exposure it gets too.

I'm lucky that I only have one small four foot roof/wall intersection above our porch. We have plywood siding, so I simply made that section removable. Remove a few screws and that panel comes off to install flashing or whatever. Then screw the panel back on. Easy peasy. :)

Agreed.

Anthony Watson

[HerHusband]

That would certainly complicate things. I can't think of an easy way to remove those nails without removing the siding first.

It is impossible to second guess what their plans are without asking them (or telling them what you WANT to be done).

With only your description to go by, it almost sounds like they are trying to reuse the existing flashing (not recommended). They might be planning on slipping the membrane behind the existing flashing.

6 inches should be plenty, you're not going to have 12 inches of water pooling on the roof (I hope not) to go above that. The step flashing isn't going to be that tall anyway (about 4" if I remember correctly).

As trader_4 mentioned, the best solution would be to remove the lower courses of siding on the wall so the membrane and flashing can be installed correctly. Do it once, do it right.

Anthony Watson

[TomR]

You mentioned that "management" made the decision, so I am guessing that this is a condo owners or homeowners association and they are responsible for the exterior of the building.

Any chance that you could take a few photos and post links to them using a free site such as

? That may make it easier to see exactly what the area looks like that is about to be repaired.

If I am picturing everything correctly, I am not sure why ice shield would need to be on the vertical wall anyway. I think of ice shield as going along a roof edge under the roof shingles in an area where there is an unheated space along the roof edge. The melting water from the roof flows down and then hits the cold edge and freezes, causing an ice dam, which raises the roof shingles and causes water to back up into the property.

So, maybe the only place that you need the new ice shield would be on the slope under the soon-to-be-new roof shingles.

And, instead of ice shield home under the siding on the wall, could they just slide some aluminum flashing under the wood siding? -- not far up, maybe just a couple of inches? And, then put the ice shield only on the sloping roof under the new roof shingles?

[trader_4]

On Saturday, June 20, 2015 at 2:27:19 PM UTC-4, TomR wrote: .

It does go over the roof deck like you say, but it also needs to extend 4 to 6" up any vertical wall surfaces that meet the roof. Otherwise, with ice damming, water will rise up and flow in there.

The step flashing needs to go up at least 4" too.

[jaynews]

Unfortunately it is a condo. I've been taking pictures of what it looks li ke now with the tarp and existing step flashing still present. If I find o ut they're planning on reusing the existing step-flashing, or if I see them do it then I will complain about it. If that actually were the plan, I w ould never have wanted them to work on my roof at all, since they may be ma king it worse than it already was, since it didn't leak when it rained, jus t when ice damming happened.

The person who works for the management company told me that this is a pref erred contractor who would never put his name on anything unless it is done right. Should I really trust this?

My opinion is that if the job really does require removal of siding to be d one properly that should be done regardless of the price. However, the ro ofer seems to be assuring them it will be "done right" without removal of s iding. He supposedly tried to locate matching siding and now is claiming i f siding is removed it all has to be removed and new siding put on for thou sands more dollars. Not sure I'm convinced that all the siding really wou ld need to be replaced if they could locate matching horizontal cedar sidin g. But, if that really were necessary to have it done right, and they don't do this, then it will still be more expensive for the association to have to do the work all over again a 2nd time when it leaks again.

[jaynews]

Oh, and I was told by management if I wanted 12 inches I would have to pay myself for the cost of replacing all the siding which would be thousands of dollars. Now I'd settle fore 6 inches done right, but if "done right" r equires removal/replacement of the siding then I really should not have to pay out of my own pocket since this is a condo and I don't own the exterior .

[TomR]

Is your condo the only one that has this ice dam problem, or are there others that they are re-doing at the same time as yours?

[jaynews]

I can't speak for other condos. There is another condo development behind me that has steeper roofs so maybe they were okay. Funny thing is they did a lot of roofing and siding work during the winter (not this winter, ma ybe last year or the year before), which I thought was crazy at the time.. ..and I think it was replacement work not repairs.

[jaynews]

Okay, I misunderstood your question...I thought you were talking about othe r developments....there are others in my development that had problems and work is being done. When I ask for the exact schedule from management as to what is going on I get ignored....so I have no idea what is going on wit h the repairs of the other units.

[Norminn]

I've been down "Goofy Road" with condo boards and roofing! Nightmare of the "recommended, reputable roofing contractor" putting the wrong kind of roofing on mansard roofs to replace concrete tile....the board chose "pretty shingles", not knowing or exploring materials or methods. The end result, after spending $47,000 (eight owners) and extensive rework, was to replace their 40-year roof after 10 years. The city also changed the building code to address the particular shingle/steep roof issue!!

Does anyone know what is presently under the siding or roofing? Drip edge? Gutters cleaned every fall? Attic ventillation? Are you having the entire roof re-roofed, or just "ice damming" correction? If siding has to come off, I'd be talking to the contractor who installed it. I'd also check with city building department. Some manufacturers will send out agents to assess plan or offer expertise; for many thousands of dollars, that would be worth the effort. There are also "certified" (by the mfg.) contractors...is this one? In the case of our condo paint job, the paint co. checked at each step of the job to see that it was done right, with full cooperation of the paint contractor.

[TomR]

You are probably correct about that. But, I assume that is how it is done initially before the roofing and siding go on. In this case, the siding is already there, and removing it will be an issue. So, maybe trying to get new ice shield to go under the old siding is not really a viable option.