Is Energizer trying to kill the rechargeable battery?

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On 08/31/2013 04:58 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

My guess would be that the marketing departments have calculated that consumers don't want to pay the cost for an actual D cell NiMH, and thusly base their decision on cost as opposed to stored energy. I'm sure that a part of the calculation includes revenue lost by people not buying throwaways, though.
How do the prices of energizer NiMH AA and D compare to legitimate brands' AA and D? Are the energizer NiHM D cells priced like a big AA cell, or are they at a price point which you would expect them to charge for a legitimate NiHM D cell? That would probably answer the question.
In any case, both "caveat emptor" and "there's one born every minute" come to mind.
Jon
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On 8/31/2013 7:11 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:

It gets tiring to have to know everything about everything to avoid being cheated.
I think C & D battery sales are becoming such a small percentage of total battery sales that a company like Eveready is just not going to bother with making every chemistry in every size, so they just use AA internals in their C & D cells for NiMH. Can you even buy a C & D NiMH charger at the big box stores?
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On Sat, 31 Aug 2013 19:11:00 -0700, Jon Danniken

Bingo!

Nothing at all to do with it.

No, different market dynamics.

Absoutely correct. It's about time the consumer stopped relying on someone else to run his life.
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On 9/1/2013 8:46 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Well, that's the thing, a Tenergy Centura C cell actually costs LESS than an Energizer Recharge C cell despite the former being what you would reasonably expect to be buying in terms of capacity, and the latter not (and the Tenergy being a modern LSD design as well.) The Tenergy D's cost only a little more than the Energizer Ds but the difference in performance is even more dramatic between the two.

Hey, I was able to read the package and determine that these were not really a useful product. I figured I would let you all know because they only print the capacity on the cells themselves, nowhere on the packaging and it's pretty well hidden on the web site.
nate
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wrote:

In series the voltage is all wrong and primary batteries in parallel is not recommended. It won't fit.

NOT a good idea.
<snip> >> Buy online. It's not like you buy rechargeables every day.

If you buy that many rechargeables you *SHOULD* be buying, in bulk, online. You're strange. Why would you think stores would cater to you?

Really. It got your blood pressure up for no damned reason.

They're selling what the consumer wants. It really is that simple.

It's nothing new. The rechargeable D's weren't D's forty years ago. You could tell just by picking up the package. It's what people want, though.
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On 9/1/2013 8:43 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Assuming parallel of course. I wouldn't be using primaries, but Eneloops or similar anyway. I understand that conventional wisdom says not to parallel up cells but Sanyo seems to think enough of their Eneloops that that is exactly what they do for their Japan market C and D "cells" - they're actually 4xAAA (for C) and 3xAA (for D) cells inside a larger casing. Additionally I have a Fenix flashlight that uses 8xAAs in a 4S2P arrangement (approximately 2D size battery carrier that inserts into the body, clearly 4S2P as the voltage at the contacts is 4.8V and the light will run on only four cells if inserted in the right places in the carrier.) Really no effective difference between that and using four parallel AA to D adapters in series in a 4D Mag with two AAs inserted in each adapter.
From what I've read online and seen myself when running break-in cycles on the Eneloops that I have, they appear to be very consistent out of the box... both remaining charge after sitting on the shelf on initial discharge and measured capacity on the break in cycle are very consistent cell to cell, so it seems like it should be relatively safe to run cells in parallel adapters as long as they are from the same production lot (or matched based on measured capacity) and are kept together as a lot in use. I'm also using a charger with independent channels to prolong life.

See above; it doesn't seem to be that bad. Yes, if you mix and match primaries out of a mess tossed into a box, I'd say that *is* a bad idea, but if used properly, I don't see the downside other than the slight loss in capacity relative to a purpose-built C or D cell. And then you have standardized on only two cell sizes for all your devices decreasing your chances of not having the cell you need ready to go when you really need it. (and of course you could still use C or D primaries or NiMH as well.)

I meant that I always buy my rechargeables online (because I get better quality products for less total cost, shipping included generally), except for this one instance where I got a heads up that the Duraloops were inexpensive, not that I'm buying them daily.

The average consumer wants an overpriced, marginally usable to unusable product?

Based on the Amazon reviews, it looks like that is an incorrect statement. Appears that lots of people are picking them up thinking they can run baby swings, jobsite radios, etc. off of them and either didn't look at the fine print or didn't realize how 2500 mAh compared to a traditional alkaline cell, and subsequently felt ripped off. As I would...
nate
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wrote:

That's an entirely different situation. When they manufacture the batteries, they're able to match the cells. Being from the same lot and matched from the beginning, they can be sure they will remain in the same state of charge. That *can't* be done with an adapter that the public is free to change cells at their whim. If someone puts a dead cell in with a fresh one, it's lawyer time.

Dangerous.

A cell that's five years old, with 500 cycles on it will behave as a new one?

It's a *horrible* idea.

That's *exactly* what people will do.

Then you've admitted my point.

Certainly. It's good enough - Existence theorem.

It's certainly not. You're talking about a different target market.

Did they read? You did, why can't they? Why are you still pissed? Sheesh, you really must lead a stressful life.
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On 9/2/2013 1:29 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Why? Anyone using such an adapter should know the difference between proper and improper use. It's a lot easier to buy flashlights that use far more dangerous cell combinations... e.g. the venerable Surefire 6P which uses two CR123As in series (and wouldn't you know it, I bought a used one once that when I looked inside had two different brand cells inside... you better believe I disposed of them TDS) or more modern stuff using multiple 18650s. If you don't match your cells in those, the potential consequences are going to be a lot worse than the busted flashlight that you'll get with mismatched alkalines or NiMHs, it can literally "vent with flame" in your hands.
Personally, I don't have any desire to have a device that uses multiple 18650s or other lithium-ion rechargeables unless I have no other choice, and if I ended up in that situation, I'd definitely be using cells with protection circuits.

Not really, NiMHs don't blow up, or even vent/leak very often. And I am using alternately a matched set of Eneloops or a matched set of Maha Imedions.

No, but if you keep the same set of cells together for their lifetime, they should age roughly the same. And even if they don't, when charged on a smart charger with individual channels that'll tell you voltage, current, and total charge for each cell, you'll be able to pick out the ones that are potential problems and either replace them with ones that are a better match to the others or just know that it's time for a whole new set.

Seems to me that it's actually preferable to using the Eneloop C and D "cells" (really batteries) in practice, as you're able to separate the cells for charging.

Those people are not using them properly, then.

I was never arguing with you over that to begin with, it is just disappointing to me that even if I'm willing to pay a slight premium for convenience that I do not have the option of buying acceptable quality products in local stores.

But it's *not* good enough... Even if you are using an ancient device that was designed around old school carbon-zinc (not alkaline) primary cells you would still experience severely reduced runtime with the Energizers (whereas either the adapter/AA combo or a purpose built NiMH D cell would either approximate or even improve upon the original performance.)

More disgusted than pissed. It's a major corporation basically attempting to trick consumers into buying an inferior product. An ethical organization would not do that.
nate
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On 9/2/2013 2:14 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
<some stuff, because>
<some other stuff>
I just thought of one good argument for your position that a company would open themselves up to personal injury lawsuits if they were to market parallel 3xAA to D cell adapters. The special case of someone shoving a bunch of mismatched, unprotected 14500 cells together.
However, Battery Junction does in fact commercially sell such adapters, they're just really expensive (over $15 each) as well as 14500 cells... and there's easier ways to mismatch Li-Ions than buying an adapter that will allow you to parallel up a not very common size.
nate
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wrote:

Oh, fire, property damage, death. Maybe even cats and dogs living together.

Nope. You even said that the public doesn't know what they're buying. There is no way to prevent improper use so it is expected that someone will use it improperly. What's more benign that HOT coffee?

What precisely is wrong with series LiIon? Two cells should be easily controllable.

...but that's just you.

Nonsense. Anything with that energy density is a fire waiting to happen.

With an aftermarket adapter there is no guarantee of that. The person selling the adapter has liability (sue everyone and let the court sort it out).

Complete nonsense. There is no danger from well matched cells. After all, that's what a bigger cell is - more of the same chemistry.

Irrelevant. Coffee held between the knees in a car isn't "using it properly", either.

Why do YOU think _your_convenience_ trumps others interests?

Your choice. Good enough.

You must have a sky high BP if retail sales marketing bothers you so much.
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On 9/2/2013 3:00 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Not with carbon-zinc, alkaline or NiMH cells, unless you set up a scenario where an abused cell is directly exposed to a flammable material. The cells themselves will not burn or explode.

But the worst consequence of abuse, barring really spectacular stupidity, is far more benign - merely dead cells and worst case, a damaged device from leaking cells.

Both lithium primaries and Li-Ion rechargeables, unlike carbon-zinc, alkaline, or NiMH, have a non-zero probability of "venting with flame" which is battery geek speak for "go boom."

Of course, because devices that use multiple Li-Ions exist and are available for sale. Even the Tesla battery pack I believe is built up from a shedload of 18650s. I hope the electronics guys at Tesla know what they're doing!

You're simply wrong; different chemistries have different risks associated with them. NiMHs are about the safest type of cell out there; they vent/leak a lot less often than even alkalines and "venting with flame" is not possible.
Again, the only way you could possibly start a fire with a NiMH is to short circuit the cell(s) and have either the cell(s) or the wire connecting them in direct contact with flammable material. If they short inside a handheld device like a flashlight, the body of the flashlight will get warm until the cells are discharged. Do NOT try that with 18650s; that would turn your flashlight into a literal pipe bomb.

And yet as I pointed out in another post, they are in fact available for sale from a legitimate retail (OK, mail-order) channel in the US, they're just really expensive for what they are.

Not nonsense, and I didn't say it was a danger. You might theoretically be able to eke out a few more cycles out of the cells if you separated them for charging, is all.

>

Because to me, it does. As I assume to you, your convenience should be pretty high on your list of decision making criteria.

Most retail sales marketing *is* sleazy, dishonest and unpleasant.
This one goes farther than most, though - there's an implied fitness for purpose that the product doesn't deliver.
nate
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On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:27:10 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

I used to work for Duracell. From a business perspective given by the executives at the time, it was a good idea for Energizer and Duracell to jump on the rechargeables bandwagon and get some sales, but it was not a good idea to cannibalize their own business with high capacity rechargeables.
--
If space and time are curved, where do all the straight people come from?

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com
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On 9/1/2013 12:05 AM, Rocinante wrote:

That must have changed because they just came out with a new line of LSD NiMHs that are competitively priced and higher capacity than Eneloops... if they get some positive reports from CPF I might try some. They're also stocking at least the AAs in lots of stores, although my local Staples is completely out (not sure if they are selling fast or just restocking slow)
In any case, that is not an unwelcome development... but the lack of good options in the mass market for C, D, and 9V is still frustrating. Still waiting on the guy to get back to me re: the Chinese eBay adapters...
Of course, look on the bright side... 10-15 years ago this discussion would have gone something like "I've heard that these adapters are available in China, but I haven't a clue how to go about getting them..."
Then again on the unbuttered side, we used to be a nation of innovators and most of the time when I say something like "gee, someone oughta make (something)" and it turns out that it *is* made, it's generally made halfway around the world, not here.
nate
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wrote:

I'm insulted by the language you used in this post.
Jessica
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On 9/3/2013 3:47 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gee-mail.com wrote:

Wow, really? A little salty language is more offensive to you than a major corporation deliberately ripping off consumers? I'm trying to help you (collective) here, you know. Feel free to not read my posts.
nate
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On 9/3/2013 4:46 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

Probably a P.L.L.C.F. female. Remember, they believe in freedom of speech as long as it's only their speech. There is also that speech control thing and Political Correctness where you can't say certain words or you will lose your job and/or media empire. ^_^
TDD
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