Is a single torsion spring garage door supposed to have a center bearing?

Page 3 of 4  


If there is no header, what are all of those drywall mud splotches covering? They sure look like nail or screw heads to me.
Here's a picture of what's above my door. Let me described it first.
On both sides of the door are 2 jack studs supporting a 2x8 laying flat to form an overhang in front of the door. You can't see that 2x8 because it is exterior of the very top of the door, which is just visible in the picture.
Outboard of those 2 jack studs are 2 more jack studs holding up a 2x8 header which is what you see in the picture.
Resting on the header are very short cripple studs that support a 2x4 laid flat at the ceiling.
If I were to cover the header, cripple studs and 2x4 with drywall like yours is, I would use screws into the lower part of the header and into the upper 2x4. Once I covered them with mud, it would look just like yours.
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/photobucket-29262-1353372161949.jpg
As far as the 4 bolts in your picture, I can't explain them. What is on the other side of that wall? Is anything mounted on the opposite side that would explain the bolts?
You know, it's just wallboard. If you want to ensure that the brackets and GDO are securely mounted, why not just rip the wallboard out so you'll know exactly what's behind it?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 01:19:14 +0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

It's the outside of the house. All stucco. Nothing is on that other side. This is earthquake country - so - maybe the four bolts are attached to an earthquake thing?
Big picture of everything:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

There's 14 mud splotches in the wallboard just above the garage door. I seriously doubt that there are 14 studs across the top of a single garage door.
I'd have ripped that wallboard off a long time ago if I couldn't figure out what was going on behind it. Worst case the OP could add some insulation and feel better about ripping the wallboard off.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 04:40:08 +0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I think we figured out that there is a steel beam at the ceiling level which also runs down (at least one) side of the garage.
Here is a detailed (large) picture of all I know at the moment:

There is a 2" thick piece of wood above the door itself (that's where the 14 mud splotches lie) and along the side of the door.
The ceiling beam apparently has a piece of wood bolted to it which is what the garage door opener trolley is attached to, and which the top bolt of the spring end plate angle iron is bolted to.
(Note: The spring end plate is merely bolted to this angle iron.)
The bottom portion of the spring end plate angle iron is screwed into the wood at the top of the door, and the bottom portion of the cable drum support is screwed into the wood at the side of the door.
None of this wood appears to be supporting members though.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Danny D. wrote:

If you can not get a good lag screw into the bearing plate, you'll need to 'span' some angle iron across the top (where the header should be) and lag into the vertical studs on both sides to make a solid connection point for the bearing plate. Use two 18" pieces of angle iron horizontally to make a mounting point. You can also use wood, a 3/4" piece of plywood that is firmly mounted into the vertical studs on either side of center to make a mounting point. If you do that, you will also need to shim the sides where the drum brackets are mounted so the torsion bar is not bending out towards the garage.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:58:15 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

There is absolutely nothing below the entire length of the spring end plate.

There 'is' a cripple stud of wood along the top (header?) of the garage door, which is diagrammed in this photo:


I have a vertical cripple stud about a foot and a half to the right of the drum mounts where I will try to shore up the lack of anything below the drum mounts themselves.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Danny D. wrote:

Probably is. See the sheet rock screws? That means there is vertical studs to mount to.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:59:55 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

Here is a picture showing the cripple studs & the steel beam:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:25:20 -0800, Oren wrote:

I can't disagree. I never would have even LOOKED at the end plates had Dan of DDM Garage Doors told me they MUST be flexing.
Mind you, he told me they were flexing BEFORE I even knew that they had no bolts below them (because there is no stud below them).
He surmised that - because he said there is no way the spring anchor bracket would move like that if the end bearing plates were solidly bolted in.
So, he's sending me, gratis, hardware to tie those end bearing plates to the nearest studs. I'm not exactly sure HOW I'm going to do that - but I'll wait for the parts to arrive where I'll figure it out from the pieces.
BTW, I don't work for DDM Garage Doors - but - if you're a do it yourselfer - I would heartily recommend Dan. He's wonderful. Don't even look anywhere else. Buy from him!
He stands behind you, hook, line, and sinker!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Danny D. wrote:

NO! That is missing the bearing, it MUST be on there!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:47:55 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

Dan Musick of DDM Garage Doors is kindly sending me a bearing.
The construction appears to be: a) There is air under the entire spring anchor plate. b) The spring anchor plate is bolted by 1 bolt to the angle iron. c) There is air below the angle iron except at the very top & bottom. d) There is air under both end bearing plates.
Given that, what appears to be happening (0.250" steel): A) As the door rolls up, the spring compresses 7.5 turns (~2") B) This (invisibly) pulls in both end bearing plates (hard to see) C) Which also visibly pulls in the spring anchor plate (~1")
Here is what I think the forces are:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:54:59 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

New information!
This DASMA spring reference says there is a new solution to the bending forces on single torsion spring brackets: http://www.dasma.com/articles/tech/tips33.asp
It says (verbatim): "For a garage door using a single torsion spring, the spring bearing bracket ... is subjected to bending back and forth each time the spring winds and unwinds. This action not only stresses the bracket and ultimately its fasteners beyond capacity, but eventually can cause the bearing itself to fall apart."
One solution to explore might be a different kind of bracket: "Ken Martin...suggests that a double-flange, side-bearing bracket be used on single spring doors. He notes that this [double-flange side-bearing] bracket is normally fastened to both the top of the horizontal track angle and into the wall"
Googling for "double-flange side-bearing bracket", I don't find a definitive article - but I'll keep looking as that might be a solution in and of itself in my special circumstances.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:25:21 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

You might be dealing with cheap original hardware. Or poorly fastened. Never saw a pic that showed if the entire bracket was moving. or it was just flexing. One other thing that I noticed taking a look at an older post to look at the bracket. DOOR CLOSED:
DOOR OPEN:

The spring is wound in the DOOR OPEN pic. Isn't that backwards? Anyway, I think others have posted pics of their single spring doors that show the spring bracket stiff. Seem the torsional forces on that bracket are always going to be no more than the weight of the door can apply, no matter what spring was used. Might be wrong on that, I'm not an engineer. That would point to a too-weak bracket/fastening. Might be age/fatigue, or poor initial quality. Personally, I would try a new or fabricated bracket of more strength. I tend toward fabricated, because it would give me an excuse to buy a drill press and a band saw. Others might go for welding gear. But you have to remove that drywall to get at good fastening points. Others may say fuggetaaboutit, and What, me worry? Happy Thanksgiving!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

I did snap a video - but it's hard to tell, in the video, exactly what is flexing. END PLATE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKjGDqz9wE
SPRING PLATE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNAfZP1bMQM


This is a difficult thing to get my mind wrapped around. Pardon me if the explanation below is difficult to decipher.
You are correct that the spring should be close to RELAXED when the door is open. Well, the spring should be only a 1/4 or 1/2 turn tensioned at the door open position - but that's close to being relaxed.
However, we have the enigma that force bending the spring end plate happens ONLY in the door open position. Why?
This caused me a lot of confusion - but I think we have to consider the situation at the exact point when the spring was initially BOLTED to the hollow rod. The spring was bolted to the hollow rod AFTER it grew 7 coils.
So, the paradox is that the FORCE on the end plate now occurs NOT when the spring is tensioned - but when it is RELAXED.
This is a counter intuitive conclusion - but it's the only explanation that makes sense when trying to explain WHY the force is greatest when the spring is in the relaxed position.
If I'm wrong - please correct me as I'm also trying to figure out why the forces appear greatest when the spring is most relaxed!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

Actually, according to Dan at DDM Garage Doors, no spring anchor bracket is strong enough to withstand the forces from the relaxed spring.
In fact, Dan told me by phone that he has seen entire cripple studs ripped out of walls by these forces on the spring anchor bracket.
If I understood Dan correctly, what prevents the spring anchor bracket from moving is NOT the mounting of the spring anchor bracket. What prevents the spring anchor bracket from moving is the lack of movement in the two bearing end plates.
I don't quite UNDERSTAND that - but - Dan told me there is no way my spring anchor bracket would be moving unless the bearing end plates were also moving. He did not know about the air under my bearing end plates - so he surmised the fact that the bearing end plates were moving solely from the fact the spring anchor bracket was moving.
The interesting thing is that, while I can see the spring anchor bracket movement ... I can not see the bearing end plate movement: END PLATE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKjGDqz9wE
SPRING PLATE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNAfZP1bMQM

But, Dan knew that the bearing end plate was moving.
I don't quite understand this ... but Dan's experience must be respected so I assume he's 100% correct. Especially since we all realize there is air underneath both of the bearing end plates.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

According to Dan, even a stronger spring anchor bracket would eventually fail unless I also fixed the flexing of the bearing end plates.
Of course, the spring anchor bracket is installed badly - so that's not helping things.

When the parts arrive from DDM Garage Doors, I plan on moving the spring anchor bracket angle iron 18" to the left so that it is mounted directly onto the cripple stud.
At the same time, I will (somehow) shore up the bearing end plates by either tying them to the studs a foot and a half distant ... or I will tie them to the steel horizontal track.
I'm waiting for the parts from Dan at DDM Garage Doors, who has already figured out what I need to do (even though I haven't figured it out yet).
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

Happy Thanksgiving to you too!
I made pumpkin pie, from scratch!

The kids wouldn't touch it ... even though it used their carved pumpkins for the guts ... and they loved the seeds ... but they just wouldn't touch my 'experimental' pumpkin pie!
Oh well ... yet another family day!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:17:25 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

Dan Musick of DDM Garage Doors kindly sent me the following repair kit, based on my photos and discussions with him.

Two 12" angle iron, 1 1/4" Two 3" long lag bolts Two Teks bolts One freeway bearing (for 2" spring ID with 1" hollow rod) One 5/16" carriage bolt with nut
The part of Dan's ad-hoc kit that I understand is the "Freeway, Cleveland Ohio, ABF" bearing for the spring end plate and a short carriage bolt to better attach the existing spring end plate to the existing angle iron.
However, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to use the remaining two angle irons and two 3-inch-long lag bolts and two "teks" self-drilling screws though... but Dan did kindly send the following two pictures along with the email earlier in the week that said the repair kit was on the way:

Do you have a better idea of what Dan's trying to tell me to do? (I called but they're away for the weekend, understandably.)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 21:03:59 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

Here's what Dan's email said:

So I think I'll try to do this: 1. I'll relocate the torsion spring end plate 18" to the left onto an existing cripple stud.
For that, I'll use two 3" lag screws to hold the angle iron onto the stud and I'll use two more 3" lag screws to hold the spring end plate onto the stud.
I'll also add the Freeway Cleveland Ohio A8F bearing to the spring end plate.
2. Separately, I'll see if I can either bolt the angle iron Dan kindly sent me to the wall and to the track, holding the end bearing plate more securely ... or ... I'll see if I can bolt the end bearing plate to the nearest stud which is about a foot and a half outside the door opening. Or both.
Hopefully, that will prevent movement of the spring end plate.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 21:14:24 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

I just tried it and I really don't see how Dan's angle iron will help me shore up the end bearing plates.
I think I'll head off to a big-box store to get a flat 3" wide metal plate, 18" long. I can Teks screw one end of that plate to the uppermost few inches of the vertical track; the other end can be lag screwed into the stud 18" toward the corner.
Note: I just tested the corner and it does NOT have any wood underneath it; the corner is a steel beam (so there's no value in going the additional foot to the corner).
I can do the same for the other side, only with a shorter 11 1/4" long 3" wide steel plate, where I can Teks screw the two garage door upper tracks together and to a stud beneath them in the center post between the two garage doors.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.