Intermatic ST01 timer on 3 way circuit operating a light

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Still struggling to get it right. Its wired up but not working. I just checked the connections but I'm going to re-check for the hot wire at both ends (hot/main and leg/remote) so I can confirm its wired according to the instruction. It really doesn't seem to be that hard but obviously I'm wrong. One thing tho, the remote switch didn't have a ground terminal so the ground in the box (plastic) is wired together but not connected to this remote switch. Can this ground not connected to this remote switch cause me not to have a working timer?
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wrote:

If it helps any the schematic (see ST01c) is here.... http://waterheatertimer.org/ST01C-program.html
Still wondering why if I have it hooked up their way, it doesn't work. I think my connections are tight and I know which wire is hot at both switches. I know this is stupid to ask but I'll ask anyway.... any chance it could be wired differently than shown?
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wrote:

YOu're not actually installing this on a water heater, are you?
You're doing it to hall lights, I thought.

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wrote:

No water heater... timer is for a outside porch light. I was hoping to have the timer in the kitchen and the remote switch in the garage but now I realize the timer has to be on the switch that is fed power from the breaker panel so I have to reverse my present setup. So now I'll have to have the timer in the garage which is not exactly what I wanted but I'll have to live with it as such.
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wrote:

I would suggest you take all the wires loose and mark them one at a time.
With all the wires disconnected find the one and only hot wire. If you have that, mark that wire with black tape.
Hopefully the other two wires will be different colors. Put a 3-way back on that group of 3 wires.
Go to the other switch and hopefully you will see the same two color wires at that box. By toggling the first 3 way switch, find the wire that is never hot and mark it with black tape and, for now, put the other 3 way switch back on.
Does everything work like it did before you started?
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wrote:

I will make all the wires loose and retest for the one only hot wire. That will definitely tell me where the timer has to go. Apparently the timer has to be on the 3 way switch that is fed power from the circuit breaker box.
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You are learning stuff that will stick with you for the rest of your life, it is a great learning experience, and you can explain that to anyone who questions you as to why it took so long to do something that seems so simple. I would bet a big sum of $$ that 98% of the folks here have had similar learning expeiences somewhere in their past, and maybe more than one such experience.
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:29:48 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob) snipped-for-privacy@att.net"

Well, in 1966, my cousin in his 80's gave me his 50 Oldsmobile, and a week later, Monday morning, the battery was dead. I tried to find the problem from 5:30 to 10PM, and by Tuesday, I wanted the wiring diagram for the car. I found a gas station that had it, but he wouldn't rent or lend it to me. He said, "Figure it out. It will do you good." and though it took another 20 hours, it did do me good.
(Right now I can't remember what my plans were. In 1966, there were no xerox machines, but maybe I thought I could find some commercial place that would copy it for me. Or maybe I wanted to borrow/rent the whole book for 2/7 days. He wasn't likely to get a 50 Olds in with a problem he needed the book for. And he could call me if he did. )
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On 2/26/2012 4:28 PM, Doug wrote:

No, it has nothing to do with the ground
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Thanks. I was beginning to draw that conclusion reading more about this timer and its wiring. I just read the URL I gave in my previous post here and if you go to the timer and go to "read more" which is underscored, that goes on to say that the timer must replace the switch that receives power from the breaker box. I think I got my switch / timer in the reverse so I will have to reverse it and wire up the same. My switch in the garage is across from the breaker box so likely that is the switch receiving power from the box and since I struggled to try everything else but reversing my timer/switch, I think I found why I couldn't get it right. Why they couldn't just put this in the instructions for wiring, I don't know. I had left an email for the mfgr before I read this reference a few days ago about if it mattered where the timer should be installed and they never got back to me. Odd too because it was left on their website as a support question.
Now if I didn't know which 3 way switch is being fed the power from the breaker box and couldn't see the breaker box, using just a tester, is there a way to tell? Do I have to have a switch wired in to tell from the remote end? I guess I need to study the 3 way switch schematics again. Thanks for the reply again.
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I thought you used a meter to determine the hot wire? With all the wires disconnected there should be one hot wire at one of the switch locations.

Yes, with the switches disconnected only one wire will be hot.

If power is feeding to the "near" end switch, then with no switch there power is not going to make it to the "remote" end.
I guess I need to study the 3 way switch

I looked at the schematic from your link that shows wiring the timer in to a 3-way circuit and it makes no sense to me. They show the timer switch on the power end of the arrangement and on the regular 3 way switch at the other location only 2 terminals are used, those normally used for the travelers, to connect back to the timer switch. That means you have wires connected only to the two sides of a double throw switch and nothing connected to the pole. In other words, it's permanently open no matter what position the switch is in.
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 16:47:36 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

I think that's my mistake when I checked the remote end, I had the switch connected at the hot end so I got the continuation of the hot wire at the remote end.... ah yes, my rookie mistake. I'm starting to get the idea of this 3 way switch. I guess with enough mistakes and such, I'm learning!!!

I thought the other end was merely wired as a 2 way switch. Gosh I hope I don't screw it up again after I reverse my present setup. I should know tomorrow afternoon when I can get back to this.
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The way they show that schematic it sure looks to me like it's wired using the wrong two terminals for it to be wired as an ordinary switch. Look at the schematic preceeding it where they show a 3 way circuit with two ordinary 3 way switches. The terminal on the far right is clearly the pole/common of the right hand switch. In the subsequent schematic for the timer, there is nothing connected to that right most terminal. In which case, as I said, that 3 way switch is permanently open.
To use it as a 2 way switch you'd use one of the terminals on the left side of the switch and the one on the right. And you'd have to make sure you put it in the box in the correct orientiation so up is on, depending on which of the two terminals you decide to use.
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On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 05:42:34 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

I think you make sense but let me try their way first and then your way. It won't take a lot of effort to do either one. My main concern is moving the timer to the garage :( but before I even do that I will check for the hot wire first. I expect it should be in the garage now. If it's not, I really will be confused.
Glad I have the tester but just curious, can one do this job without a tester? I suppose a lot of trial and error without the tester???
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On 2/27/2012 7:42 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Too much knowledge can be a problem. We understand how 3-way switches work. I had a lot of trouble with the SP switch at the 'light' end. I finally figured out it is in a control circuit, not a power circuit. Other clues - used switches may not work; you may need a new switch (low current through the contacts) - max 100 foot travelers between switches (capacitive currents in a high Z control circuit?)
===============A possible problem wiring the circuit - the single pole switch at the 'far' end has to be in the traveler connected to the red timer wire. You may not know which traveler is which. The instructions cover that by saying if the timer does not work swap the travelers.
One approach - wire it as a single pole timer/switch ignoring the far end switch. Connect one 'far' end traveler to the wire that goes to the light. If it does not work swap the travelers. - when that works you can add the second traveler to the timer red wire and add the single pole switch at the far end.
=======================================If you get the circuit to work you could try reversing the ends to see if the timer works when it is not connected to the hot-feed end. It might.
The timer is more complicated than a simple 3-way switch. As someone else said, we learn from experiences like this. [But there are some things I would rather not learn.]
--
bud--


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According to the schematic he provided it's not really in any circuit.
http://waterheatertimer.org/ST01C-program.html
It shows the standard 3 way switch at the light end wired using only the two terminals that the travelers would normally connect to. Nothing is connected to the common/ pole termimal. In other words, those wires never connect to each other or to anything else.
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On 2/27/2012 10:20 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Doesn't load for me. I used http://www.intermatic.com/~/media/Intermatic/Documentation/Timers/In-Wall/Electronic/ST01/ST01C%20Instructions.ashx I assume it is the same.

If the 'far' switch closed then wires blue and red at the timer are connected. Far switch open then blue and red are not connected. The only way the circuit made sense to me (eventually) was that the timer was sensing whether red-blue were open or closed. It could use the battery to sense open/closed. And that is consistent with the other 2 items I mentioned, which don't make sense if the 'far' switch is being used in a power circuit.
It doesn't make sense that the 'far' switch is in a power circuit, so there must be another answer. IMHO the power circuit is the timer switches black-blue on or off. (In a single switch configuration that is what the timer does.)
Alternate ideas? There is always the gnome theory of cause and effect (everything is caused by gnomes).
--
bud--

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The problem is, it's not the same at all. I agree the above diagram shows the 3-way used as a regular on/off switch. That other diagram shows something very different. First it shows a typical 3 way switch diagram with a 3-way switch on the left connected to power. Two traveler wires go from that to the 3-way switch on the right. Coming out the other side of the far switch, the wire goes to the light. With me so far, right?
Then then show how to use the timer 3-way switch. They use it to replace the 3-way switch on the power side. Then they show two wires going from this new switch to THE TERMINALS ON THE FAR SWITCH THAT WERE CONNECTED TO THE TRAVELERS. Nothing is connected to the pole/common terminal that previously went to the light. In other words, that switch is doing nothing.
He should wire it per the Intermatic diagram above.

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On 2/27/2012 11:39 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

The waterheatertimer link worked fine today.
I see what your objection is. They don't draw the switch consistently. They use black as the color for the "common" 3-way terminal. If you use the black screw as the "common" the diagrams are all OK. But they move the black screw on the diagram you object to - it is the "common" on that diagram, on all the others it is a traveler. Changing the way the switch is drawn on a wiring diagram is a real bad idea, a major flaw in what otherwise look like a good diagrams. I wonder how many people had trouble wiring the timer because of the diagram.
The timer has a lot bigger battery than I expected.
--
bud--

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On 2/27/2012 10:20 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I probably read your comment wrong. The circuit from Intermatic
http://www.intermatic.com/~/media/Intermatic/Documentation/Timers/In-Wall/Electronic/ST01/ST01C%20Instructions.ashx
shows the 'far' end switch connections as common terminal and a traveler terminal - as ordinary single pole switch. Or as an alternate it shows using an ordinary SP switch.
Connecting only to the the traveler terminals would be mystifying. But there is http://catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html
--
bud--

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