Interesting story about home automobile gasoline filling stations in residential property

[worker bee]

Interesting story just developed over the past two months that I figured I'd let you know about in case it happens to you.

For about five years, I've been in an unfriendly situation with my nearest neighbor (over past events with the kids getting into trouble and barking loose dogs).

Then, the past two months, no less than 5 inspectors came to my property to check for hazardous conditions due to 'anonymous' complaints.

The first was the fire marshall who was told I had 'large gasoline tanks' on the property. Turns out, fuel containers of fewer than 60 gallons each are exempt from fire marshall permit needs (a permit application alone, he told me, is over $750).

That didn't strike me as too weird until the zoning guys dropped by. They said someone complained about an improper 'accessory structure' used to house gasoline. Turns out any accessory structure that is six feet from the property line meets zoning requirements, so he left me alone.

It started to get weirder when the building inspector showed up for the same reason (don't these guys talk to each other?). He too left empty handed. Apparently an accessory structure only needs a permit if it's greater than 120 square feet and if its highest point is greater than 14 feet tall.

I knew someone had it in for me when, a month later, my wife called me at work to say there was a guy snooping around the property without even knocking on the door! She called the police and then called me!

Turns out, it was a hazmat inspector who had received a complaint about a 'primary container' leaking with no 'secondary containment' in place. He left before I arrived but told my wife that there was nothing he could or would do unless it was actually leaking as there are no storage regulations for private property other than you can't actually leak gasoline into the ground.

He did suggest a 'secondary containment' of an oblong horse trough though.

I rushed home early from work to find both the police and yet another inspector talking to my wife in the back yard. This inspector was from the air quality management district. He said that organic fuel gas tanks less than 260 gallons were exempt from vapor recovery & pressure venting requirements, so he left before the cop finished asking questions.

The cop seemed amused by the whole story - but he asked a LOT of questions about the gas cans lying around.

Turns out that you can't transport anything heavier (yes, heavier) than

500 pounds of "fuel" in a vehicle (not counting the vehicle's gasoline tank itself) which he said was 62 gallons of gasoline (#11160 title 13 California Code of Regulations & 32000.5a California Vehicle Code). He also mentioned that 172.504c Title 49 of the code of Federal Regulations requires a placard if you carry more than 1,000 pounds of gasoline.

Since I'm only carrying about 50 gallons, I'm exempt from that too!

All in all, an interesting story. Now, I do have a sense of humor so I have to figure out how I can get my neighbor back.

Have you ever engaged in these type of neighborly wars? Any good ideas?

[Home Guy]

There is an awful lot about gasoline and gasoline containers in your story.

Do you keep a lot of gas cans on your property - in full public view?

Do you handle a lot of gas cans (moving them around) on your property?

Is there a constant odor of gasoline hanging around your property that the neighbor can smell? Or can the neighbor see you and your gas cans without too much effort?

The average home owner might have a few 5-gallon cans for lawn mowers or other small gas-powered engines - but it sounds like you dick around with so much gas that you must make a living out of it somehow. Do you own/operate a yard-maintainence or landscaping company (lots of lawn mowers, small tractors, etc)? Or construction equipment (back-hoe, etc)?

Or maybe you have lots of recreational vehicles? Boats or other watercraft? Dirt bikes or ATV's?

[Tony Hwang]

60 gal. of gas is more tan a big drumful. How come so much gas. in the yard? Gas blend changes from season to season.

[Home Guy]

Which got me thinking: You'd better clear-out all that gas, because the next step your neighbor is likely to take is to throw a cigarette at it.

[Tony Hwang]

OP better have some special coverage on his house insurance. I have two small portable cans, one with regular gas, one for 2 cycle engine stored in my tool shed.

[worker bee]

I have 10 five-gallon Blitz gasoline containers & a 55 gallon drum where I pour them into, about once a month or so (as needed). So most of the time the 10 red cans are empty (caps loose, open to the atmosphere) and the 55-gallon drum is how I dispense gasoline to two vehicles with a gasoline pump.

The neighbor can see into my back yard, as I can see into his as there are few surrounding trees - only small shrubs which afford no great means of privacy unfortunately.

Once a month or so, I fill the 10 5-gallon portable gasoline containers at a filling station and use them to refill the 55-gallon drum. Other than that, they don't 'move' around my property.

No way would there be an odor. There is way too much wind for that. Plus there are no vapors to speak of that one could smell. They're all closed containers when full. However, the neighbor 'can' see the whole operation from where he sits as he is slightly elevated over me and there are scant foliage to hide my perfectly legal activities.

No. I just fill my vehicles as needed. It takes about four to eight weeks (average might be about six, but it varies) to empty the 55-gallon drum, which necessitates a refill.

No. Just your average tools. Riding mower. 2-stroke blower. Stile chain saw. Four-bladed edger & cultivator. Weed trimmer. 2-inch wood chipper. Just the normal stuff. Why do you ask?

One motorcycle. Two cars. A half dozen regular yard engines. Normal stuff. But they all use gasoline to the tune of roughly fifteen or so gallons a week (give or take a few).

[worker bee]

Actually, as far as I can tell, gasoline doesn't spoil all 'that' fast.

I use up the entire 55 gallon drum in just a few weeks, depending on my driving of course. It generally takes less than two months to use it all up.

Even California blended corn-o-haul easily lasts two months from what I've seen in the literature. HOWEVER (and this is a big but) ... EVERYONE says gas doesn't last long but NOBODY actually has a length of time specified that anyone else will agree to.

Hearing people say gas doesn't last is about as useful as hearing people say life isn't what it used to be. It's meaningless the way it's used.

NOBODY but nobody can tell me how LONG gasoline REALLY lasts but EVERYONE I talk to says two months is just fine. I even called Chevron and they said there is no problem using their reformulated California gas months after it was dispensed. They said WATER is the main culprit in gasoline going bad - and they said that as long as you keep water out of the tank, it should easily last the time I'm using it. They said heat also matters, but, at outside temperatures, it doesn't matter as much as water does.

So, if anyone can find an actual TIME that others will agree to that gasoline lasts in outside storage - I'd be the first one to listen to them - but two months seems, by all accounts, to be well within the agreed-upon stable storage period.

[worker bee]

Actually, it's a 55 gallon drum and I don't seem to get even 50 gallons into it, strangely enough. But I generally fill it before it goes empty so I haven't filled it from empty since it was new a few years ago.

I use the gas up within two months (generally a month to a month and a half is when I refill) so I really doubt the seasons matter all that much

- especially in California where there is really only one, maybe two at most, seasons anyway. There is a cool dry summer and a slightly cooler wetter winter - neither of which has a temperature swing you can't get in a single day in most other northern parts of the country.

My gas tank is about 20 gallons. The wife's tank is about 20 gallons. The bike is about 5 gallons. And the lawn mower and a half dozen other engines around the yard takes another 5 gallons.

So, a single fillup (which in practice rarely happens) will empty out the

55-gallon drum. I don't see how this amount is any different than most of you out there.

Don't you guys have a car for you, and one for the wife, and maybe a secondary vehicle? Don't you have lawn mowers? Don't you have other yard equipment? I would think 55 gallons is the bare minimum since all it does is fill the tanks just once.

What I 'really' want is TWO 55 gallon drums. Actually, I'd love a 200 gallon tank - but once you get over 60 gallons, you start getting into fire marshall permits & transportation permits and anything over 260 gallons for delivered fuel gets you into air resource board requirements.

So, 55 gallons seems a bare minimum, at least to me. Maybe you guys go to the gas station a lot more than I do? Or you and your wife drive the same car?

[worker bee]

:)

Cigarettes don't light liquid gasoline like they do in the movies, simply because a cigarette is about 475°F (plus or minus 25°F) while the ignition temperature of liquid gasoline is just slightly above that at around 500°F. So, of course a very hot cigarette 'could' ignite liquid gasoline - but not one thrown over the fence at me by my neighbor! :)

Fire is, of course, the biggest realistic danger.

Everyone manages that risk daily - for example, a one-car garage has roughly 20 gallons of gasoline in it in metal or plastic gas tanks; a two car garage has about 40, and a three-car garage has about 60 gallons of gasoline in them all the time. It's way more dangerous to have gasoline in a garage than outside, in a very airy structure to keep sun and water off the equipment.

My gasoline is kept outside, in a very well ventilated shed (it's almost not a shed, it's that well ventilated). Gas fumes in and of themselves are not flammable but when mixed with air, then of course, they're highly flammable in the right concentration near the floor of any enclosure.

The biggest danger is static electricity igniting fumes.

This can happen while fueling the vehicles at roughly 15 gallons per minute from the automatic-shut-off 1/4 HP 12VDC electric fuel transfer pump. To ward that off, the setup is well grounded, of course, with two copper rods (for redundancy), and a 10BC fire extinguisher is always nearby, just in case.

But a home filling station is no more dangerous than a commercial gasoline filling station is, and, in fact, less dangerous if the puny amounts of gasoline (55 gallons) are taken into account.

[Kurt Ullman]

But that is arson and that is something you can back at the neighbor.

[bugalugs]

Why can't you fill your car at the gas station like everybody else???.

At the moment the gas goes to the 5 gallon tank ( 10 times) to the 55 gallon drum (10 times) then to the car. Why all the stuffing around ??? Do it once!!!

If you want to upset your neighbor order him a dozen piazza or a load of shingle.

[HeyBub]

A burning cigarette will not ignite gasoline. But your point is well taken; a thrown railroad flare will do the trick.

[Norminn]

clipped

Calling code enforcement is a good way to start a neighbor war...gotta be careful where it goes. I called code once when condo neighbors all had gasoline cans sitting outside their doors for boats...some never used their boats, so the gas was probably years old. We had already had minor thefts and vandalism, so didn't want the vandal critters to be inspired by having gasoline at hand. One neighbor was gone a lot, so his son took one of his gas cans and put it inside the condo! The FD enforced .. very nicely .. using the right kind of can, away from the structure. The gas cans were stored outside front doors after I called code enf. to get rid of recycling bins (full of trash) outside front doors. The recycling bins, prior to my arrival at the condo, replaced open trash cans that were the dining area for rats. They changed from open trash cans to (free) dumpster, which helped. Another neighbor had called code enf. about attic rats - there had been very heavy infestation - and the code guy found only "dust balls in the AC duct"; had he checked the attic, he's have found lots of rat sign. After one elderly neighbor passed away, I helped organize the estate sale in his condo unit..great big rat trap on his closet shelf. These are not poor folks we're talking about...

[HeyBub]

You should ignore the insults and irritations or respond with a scorched earth policy.

If you reply to your neighbor's affronts with piddly responses, like sending him a fire engine at 3:00 a.m., this tit-for-tat business will go on for decades, causing continuing fluxations and causing you (and him) to nearly itch to death.

Now by "scorched earth" I mean doing something, probably illegal, but that has a consequence orders of magnitudes greater than a mere inconvenience.

• Find about three of your like-minded neighbors. Visit your neighbor and beat the shit out of him. I mean sufficient to put him, if not in the hospital, at least in the emergency room.

• In the dark of the moon, plant some Marijuana shrubs in an out of the way place on his property. Wait a week. Call the fuzz.

Consult the book: "Make My Day." Get it here:

I particularily liked the episode where a chap, after getting screwed by an attorney, impersonated the attorney in talks with both the telephone company and a local cemetery. He persuaded both that he was in desperate fear of being buried alive and wanted a telephone in his casket and that he was willing to pay any amount.

Negotiations continued for several weeks, but finally both the telephone company and the cemetery found ways, at no small expense, to accommodate his request.

He then took out an "ad" in a local suburban newspaper, disguised as an obituary, of the target attorney. The legal-specialty newspaper in his community picked it up and republished the faux death notice.

By this time, both the cemetery and the telephone company were pestering the object attorney with demands that he come right down and sign some papers.

Then it got worse for the lawyer.

[hls]

I suggest you just let this thing cool off, and dont do anything that will make it worse... "Getting even" can get you into severe trouble with the law if you are not careful.

Just my 2 cents

[worker bee]

Other than the unexpected inspector visits, it's just so very much easier to fill up once every two months at the filling station.

It's all about the sheer convenience of gassing up at home.

On a different scale, it's the same reason you get water out of the tap, instead of bringing a bucket to the village well every time you need a drink.

[Home Guy]

Yea, I think that's what we're all trying to figure out at this point.

His neighbor was looking for a reason to call the authorities on him, and didn't have to look far.

There's only 2 reasons why someone might want to maintain a small store of gas in his backyard:

1) It's a long way to the gas station, and you're going to burn a lot of gas going there just to get your gas. So get as much as you can in one trip and bring it all home for re-distribution.

2) You want to save a few bucks by buying gas when the price is low. It's just that you want to buy a LOT of gas when the price is low - enough to last you a month.

I can't see either reason as being lucrative enough to justify the hassle and the up-front cost in the tanks and pump. The additional risk of having a large gas tank on your property is hard to quantify - and just remember that it becomes more dangerous from an explosion pov the more empty it gets.

Oh - your home insurance company might not like seeing this tank on your property - you might want to check your insurance contract to see if there's a limit as to how much gas they'll let you store before they void the contract. If your neighbor was creative enough, he might try to figure out who your property is insured with and give them an anonymous call...

[George]

I would have to agree with you. I never understood the charm of just being able to pull into a gas station and buy gasoline on demand and let others deal with transporting and storing it. And even worse there are three local cash only stations that charge less and pump it for you...

Not at all, you said you go to a gas station to get a flammable liquid and put it in containers which you transport home and dump into another container which you then transfer again. How exactly is that more convenient than pulling into a gas station and saying "fill it up".

[George]

Same here. I can't imagine what the convenience might be of filling cans to bring home to dump into another container to then pump into the car when I can just pull into a gas station and have the cars tank filled and occasionally fill the small cans that I use for the mower and the weedwacker.

[bob haller]

there are alternatives.......

use your motor vehicles to fuel your lawn and other type stuff.

many modern vehicles have a schrader valve under the hood for service purposes. its a quick disconnect type device....

open hood, connect line, turn on key so electric fuel pump goes on and your all set. ,minimize amount of gasoline around but still keep some

5 gallon cans... ideally if you have a pick up you could add saddle tanks, and use the pick up as your fueling station

just quit filling the 55 gallon drum, or if you want to fill it and add fuel stabilizer..... it can sit for at least a couple years. always be prepared:)

neighborhood wars are never a good thing....... everyone looses