Installing washing machine

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I'm installing a washing machine (used Sears Model 15111, I don't know how old - maybe 10 -15 years) and was about to try to do my first wash however I think I may have a problem. Reading the instructions on the inside of this top-loader's door, I see a series of explanations of possible problems. Among them is one for the washer not filling entirely. It says it may do this if the drain hose isn't 34 inches above the floor. It's not. I just assumed that this thing would only put water out the drain hose when it was supposed to but now I figure that it will automatically drain if the end of the drain hose is below where you want your water level.
The thing is that the laundry room's drain pipe isn't that high. It goes straight up and then turns 90 degrees at about 14 inches above the floor (the hole is about 3.5 inches in diameter and is pointing horizontally). I took the drain hose from the washer and twisted it about 360 degrees (to take up the slack) and jammed it (wedging it) into the drain pipe's elbow and figured it would drain fine when it was supposed to. I don't know what kind of washer it was designed for but I figure maybe it won't work with my Sears washer unless I take off that elbow and put on an extension so it's about 34 inches above the floor. I sure don't want to do my first load until it's likely to work OK. Thanks for any information.
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Looking closer I see that the drain pipe elbow end is threaded. The inside diameter is about 1.75 inches.
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On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:23:50 GMT, Horatio Hornblower
:Looking closer I see that the drain pipe elbow end is threaded. The :inside diameter is about 1.75 inches.
That elbow isn't the same diameter on both ends.
The outside diameter at the connected end (that points vertically) is 3 1/4 inches and at the open end (that points horizontally) is 2 5/8 inches. The pipe it connects to that disappears under the floor has outside diameter 2 3/8 inches.
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the issue with 34" is that you need to have the drain above the water level in the tub. The other option, and probably not a good one, is that SOME POINT along the drain hose be at that level. The problem is that there is no valve or anything to prevent the water from running out of the tub - only the fact that the drain is higher than the intended water level. When the washer drains, the pump pumps the water out.
You need to extend the drain pipe to the proper height some how. A longer pipe. or a longer hose where you can get some point above the 34" level.

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Dan Musicant wrote:

Washer hoses normally hang loose in the drain pipe (open to atmospheric pressure) and are above the level of water in the washer. If the hose is at a lower level, water could siphoned out of the washer. If the drain is not open to the atmosphere water can siphon even if the connection is higher than 34 inches. For that reason you cannot simply have a longer hose that goes above 34 inches and then connects in the drain pipe. You need an open to the atmosphere connection above the water level in the tub to prevent siphoning.
As you said, you can remove the horizontal pipe and elboe and extend the drain pipe straight up. But you don't need to use 3.5 inch pipe; 2 inch pipe would be fine. Or you can add an elboe on the horizontal pipe, a reducer, and an extension (probably 2 inch pipe) up to the required height. BTW, the 34 inches is just a minimum but you don't want it too high as it make it hard for the pump in the washer; I would make it at least 36 inches from floor to opening. What you do depends on how much room you have and what the drain pipe is made of.
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Is there some reason why you are not using a laundry tub for this?
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He doesn't say, but perhaps he doesn't have one, or the space to install one. In a small 'laundry closet' type installation like many new homes seem to have today, there just isn;t room for a tube. Of course most newer installations use a valve/drain combination unit that is recessed into the wall, placing both the supplies and drain at the appropriate height.

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On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 04:27:41 GMT, "mwlogs"
:He doesn't say, but perhaps he doesn't have one, or the space to install :one. In a small 'laundry closet' type installation like many new homes seem :to have today, there just isn;t room for a tube. Of course most newer :installations use a valve/drain combination unit that is recessed into the :wall, placing both the supplies and drain at the appropriate height.
: :> Is there some reason why you are not using a laundry tub for this? : By laundry tub you mean one of those deep sinks you often see? I'm not sure it would fit. Maybe at some point I'll put one in. I guess I'll discuss that with my GC and/or plumber when I upgrade the plumbing on this place.
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Hi,
With a drain hose that low the water may syphone out and the washer -may- never start as the incomming water may just go right out and down the drain....
http://www.applianceaid.com/faq-washers.html#filling

That may be a catalog #, Kenmore model#'s are more like 123.45678910
May not be exact to yours or all washers, but some install tips...
http://www.applianceaid.com/movingday3.html
jeff.
Appliance Repair Aid http://www.applianceaid.com /
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Your correct but to further your knowledge....the first "1" in the stock # indicates the size of the washer..in this case..large. As opposed to "2" which would indicate the larger washer series. The second number indicates the last digit of the year "5". The third letter, another "1" indicates the series; in this case the lowest level. They basically number from 1 to 9. The fourth "1" indicates how far up in this particular model series and the last "1" is the color code. 1 for white with black console, 2 for white on white, 4 for bisque. In older models the decade was the number just before the first "1" after the period in the full model number. In newer models, it would be the first number after color number. Not that any of this is of any value...just woke up at 5am and couldn't go back to sleep...sorry.
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wrote:
: : :> :> > Sears Model 15111 :> :> That may be a catalog #, Kenmore model#'s are more like 123.45678910 :> :> May not be exact to yours or all washers, but some install tips... :> :> http://www.applianceaid.com/movingday3.html :> : :Your correct but to further your knowledge....the first "1" in the stock # :indicates the size of the washer..in this case..large. As opposed to "2" :which would indicate the larger washer series. The second number indicates :the last digit of the year "5". The third letter, another "1" indicates the :series; in this case the lowest level. They basically number from 1 to 9. :The fourth "1" indicates how far up in this particular model series and the :last "1" is the color code. 1 for white with black console, 2 for white on :white, 4 for bisque. In older models the decade was the number just before :the first "1" after the period in the full model number. In newer models, :it would be the first number after color number. Not that any of this is of :any value...just woke up at 5am and couldn't go back to sleep...sorry. : Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it.
Specs listed are:
Model number: 110. 91511100
Stock number: 15111
Serial number: CD3223463
9.8 amps - - - - I assume this means it was model year 1995?
It doesn't say Kenmore anywhere I can see, just Sears. The dryer (a natural gas dryer), however, says Kenmore:
Kenmore 120v 60hz 6 amps ANS Z21.5.1 Clothes Dryer BTU/HR 22000
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Interesting!!
Thankx!
jeff. Appliance Repair Aid http://www.applianceaid.com /
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On 13 Feb 2004 11:53:04 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (jeff) wrote:
:> > :> > > Sears Model 15111 :> > :> > That may be a catalog #, Kenmore model#'s are more like 123.45678910 :> > :> > May not be exact to yours or all washers, but some install tips... :> > :> > http://www.applianceaid.com/movingday3.html :> > :> :> Your correct but to further your knowledge....the first "1" in the stock # :> indicates the size of the washer..in this case..large. As opposed to "2" :> which would indicate the larger washer series. The second number indicates :> the last digit of the year "5". The third letter, another "1" indicates the :> series; in this case the lowest level. They basically number from 1 to 9. :> The fourth "1" indicates how far up in this particular model series and the :> last "1" is the color code. 1 for white with black console, 2 for white on :> white, 4 for bisque. In older models the decade was the number just before :> the first "1" after the period in the full model number. In newer models, :> it would be the first number after color number. Not that any of this is of :> any value...just woke up at 5am and couldn't go back to sleep...sorry. : :Interesting!! : :Thankx! : :jeff. :Appliance Repair Aid :http://www.applianceaid.com /
To quote the link (actually another link, provided, that says the same thing!):
http://doityourself.com/appliance/irpwasher.htm
Washing Machine Installation: How To      Pipes required for the washer installation include hot and cold hose bibb valves, and drain hose standpipe.
1. Thread standard hose bibb valves into the brass female threaded winged fitting of the hot and cold supply lines. These will connect to the washer with a rubber hose.
2. A 2" drain standpipe is installed with a trap above the floor for the waste line. Usually this is between 6 to 12 inches above the floor.
3. Install the hot and cold hose bibb valves and drain hose pipe so that they can be reached when the machine is in place. The drain standpipe should always be taller than your highest water level in the machine to add protection from back-up water and siphoning. These are usually pre-fabricated 2 inch pipes (designed to fit into a standard 2-inch drain pipe) that have a built in trap and are available from your dealer in several lengths. Commonly, they are 34" or longer but check your local code* for length and diameter required in your area.
4. Hook up the water supply line. Put washers into the washer end of the hose and hand tighten. Then give a 1/4 turn with pliers to tighten the hose to the machine. Connect hot to hot and cold to cold.
5. Use a filter washer, with the screen facing out, at the ends that connect to the hose bib valves at the hot and cold water supply lines.
6. Set the drain hose into the standpipe. Secure the hose to the drain pipe with duct tape to prevent it from coming out.
7. Level the washing machine by adjusting the legs under the machine. - - - -
I went to a big hardware store today and started scouting around to see what they had. I saw some iron pipes I figured I could use and was perusing the traps they had when a worker asked me if I could use some help and I said "yes."
I told him the situation and he said a trap wasn't necessary. I said I'd been to a website that said a trap was a good idea (see above!). He started scouting around and after 15-20 minutes came up with 3 different PVC packages that, together, amounted to a trap/extension system that I could screw directly into the elbow. It will extend maybe 37 inches from the floor and he said I could just cut off what I don't want.
He said if it was him, he'd support the hose somehow. He said over time he thought it would be a strain on the PVC connections - enough to cause failure at some point unless I support the hose somehow, maybe with a strap or hook or similar. I figure I can do that. One of my concerns was the join of the PVC/elbow. He said to use teflon tape for that.
Well, I haven't assembled yet but I'm THAT close to doing my first home laundry ever! Thanks for the help...d
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What would they use for a portable or compact washer?
And how about those numbers on other appliances like a fridge or range? I assume the rest (described below) would be similar in those cases?
Just Curious.
Dan O. - Appliance411.com http://ng.Appliance411.com/?ref411=Kenmore+washer
=~~~~~~

indicates the

to 9.

and the

white on

before
models,
this is of

sleep...sorry.
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Methinks you're still going to have to extend that pipe because it *seems* to me that despite what you've done with that washer hose, you've still got a very low pipe creating siphon suction. You can tie that hose in 100 knots to take up the slack, but physics is physics -- that 14"-high pipe connection is still you "suck point" as it were.
This is why the minumum recommended by Sears is what it is.
Fixing this seems to me to be a fairly easy job for a plumber or only a mildly frustrating DIY job.
AJS
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wrote:
:> :> > I'm installing a washing machine (used Sears Model 15111, I don't know :> > how old - maybe 10 -15 years) and was about to try to do my first wash :> > however I think I may have a problem. Reading the instructions on the :> > inside of this top-loader's door, I see a series of explanations of :> > possible problems. Among them is one for the washer not filling :> > entirely. It says it may do this if the drain hose isn't 34 inches above :> > the floor. It's not. I just assumed that this thing would only put water :> > out the drain hose when it was supposed to but now I figure that it will :> > automatically drain if the end of the drain hose is below where you want :> > your water level. :> > :> > The thing is that the laundry room's drain pipe isn't that high. It goes :> > straight up and then turns 90 degrees at about 14 inches above the floor :> > (the hole is about 3.5 inches in diameter and is pointing horizontally). :> > I took the drain hose from the washer and twisted it about 360 degrees :> > (to take up the slack) and jammed it (wedging it) into the drain pipe's :> > elbow and figured it would drain fine when it was supposed to. I don't :> > know what kind of washer it was designed for but I figure maybe it won't :> > work with my Sears washer unless I take off that elbow and put on an :> > extension so it's about 34 inches above the floor. I sure don't want to :> > do my first load until it's likely to work OK. Thanks for any :> > information. : :Methinks you're still going to have to extend that pipe because it :*seems* to me that despite what you've done with that washer hose, :you've still got a very low pipe creating siphon suction. You can tie :that hose in 100 knots to take up the slack, but physics is physics -- :that 14"-high pipe connection is still you "suck point" as it were. : :This is why the minumum recommended by Sears is what it is. : :Fixing this seems to me to be a fairly easy job for a plumber or only a :mildly frustrating DIY job. : :AJS
Yeah. Great thanks to everybody who answered.
I understand that the best solution is to have some point in the drain hose HIGHER than the highest water level I want. I think the best thing is to extend the drain pipe up to around 36 inches from the floor, as suggested.
I'm wondering another thing, which is if it's worthwhile to install a trap in the drain. Fact is, I don't smell anything from that pipe right now, but it was at least 20 years since it's been used, at least that open end of it. I did test it the other night - I ran a hose down it and turned on the water full blast for several minutes to make sure it wouldn't back up. That was about 5 gallons/minute.
I suppose I could just set things up without a trap and if I smell anything funny I can redo it with a trap of some kind.
I've had enough frustration from this install that a little more isn't a deterant!
I'm wondering if I should try to remove that elbow. If I can get it off without too much trouble, that would be the easiest extension scenario, assuming I can find a coupler to the pipe. Even if I can't find a coupler, I figure I could duct tape some kind of pipe and I'd have my drain. It's not going to be under pressure, after all.
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:I'm wondering if I should try to remove that elbow. If I can get it off :without too much trouble, that would be the easiest extension scenario, :assuming I can find a coupler to the pipe. Even if I can't find a :coupler, I figure I could duct tape some kind of pipe and I'd have my :drain. It's not going to be under pressure, after all.
That elbow isn't the same diameter on both ends.
The outside diameter at the connected end (that points vertically) is 3 1/4 inches and at the open end (that points horizontally) is 2 5/8 inches. The pipe it connects to that disappears under the floor has outside diameter 2 3/8 inches.
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On 13 Feb 2004 03:47:50 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (jeff) wrote:
:> I'm installing a washing machine (used Sears Model 15111, I don't know :> how old - maybe 10 -15 years) and was about to try to do my first wash :> however I think I may have a problem. Reading the instructions on the :> inside of this top-loader's door, I see a series of explanations of :> possible problems. Among them is one for the washer not filling :> entirely. It says it may do this if the drain hose isn't 34 inches above :> the floor. It's not. I just assumed that this thing would only put water :> out the drain hose when it was supposed to but now I figure that it will :> automatically drain if the end of the drain hose is below where you want :> your water level. :> :> The thing is that the laundry room's drain pipe isn't that high. It goes :> straight up and then turns 90 degrees at about 14 inches above the floor :> (the hole is about 3.5 inches in diameter and is pointing horizontally). :> I took the drain hose from the washer and twisted it about 360 degrees :> (to take up the slack) and jammed it (wedging it) into the drain pipe's :> elbow and figured it would drain fine when it was supposed to. I don't :> know what kind of washer it was designed for but I figure maybe it won't :> work with my Sears washer unless I take off that elbow and put on an :> extension so it's about 34 inches above the floor. I sure don't want to :> do my first load until it's likely to work OK. Thanks for any :> information. : :Hi, : :With a drain hose that low the water may syphone out and the washer :-may- never start as the incomming water may just go right out and :down the drain.... : :http://www.applianceaid.com/faq-washers.html#filling : :> Sears Model 15111 : :That may be a catalog #, Kenmore model#'s are more like 123.45678910 : :May not be exact to yours or all washers, but some install tips... : :http://www.applianceaid.com/movingday3.html : :jeff. : :Appliance Repair Aid :http://www.applianceaid.com /
Looking more closely, specs listed are:
Model number: 110. 91511100
Stock number: 15111
Serial number: CD3223463
9.8 amps
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On 13 Feb 2004 03:47:50 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (jeff) wrote:
:> I'm installing a washing machine (used Sears Model 15111, I don't know :> how old - maybe 10 -15 years) and was about to try to do my first wash :> however I think I may have a problem. Reading the instructions on the :> inside of this top-loader's door, I see a series of explanations of :> possible problems. Among them is one for the washer not filling :> entirely. It says it may do this if the drain hose isn't 34 inches above :> the floor. It's not. I just assumed that this thing would only put water :> out the drain hose when it was supposed to but now I figure that it will :> automatically drain if the end of the drain hose is below where you want :> your water level. :> :> The thing is that the laundry room's drain pipe isn't that high. It goes :> straight up and then turns 90 degrees at about 14 inches above the floor :> (the hole is about 3.5 inches in diameter and is pointing horizontally). :> I took the drain hose from the washer and twisted it about 360 degrees :> (to take up the slack) and jammed it (wedging it) into the drain pipe's :> elbow and figured it would drain fine when it was supposed to. I don't :> know what kind of washer it was designed for but I figure maybe it won't :> work with my Sears washer unless I take off that elbow and put on an :> extension so it's about 34 inches above the floor. I sure don't want to :> do my first load until it's likely to work OK. Thanks for any :> information. : :Hi, : :With a drain hose that low the water may syphone out and the washer :-may- never start as the incomming water may just go right out and :down the drain.... : :http://www.applianceaid.com/faq-washers.html#filling : :> Sears Model 15111 : :That may be a catalog #, Kenmore model#'s are more like 123.45678910 : :May not be exact to yours or all washers, but some install tips... : :http://www.applianceaid.com/movingday3.html : :jeff. : :Appliance Repair Aid :http://www.applianceaid.com /
Thanks for the links. I'm really glad I didn't turn on my washer yesterday. I had loaded it with laundry and was getting ready to turn it on. I read the instructions and decided to not add detergent until I was satisfied that things were working OK. But I decided to read the troubleshooting section on the inside door before starting and the bit about it not filling all the way caught my attention. It appeared to me that there was no valve (I had presumed there was a valve) and that the drain pipe had to be 34+ inches high! I went to the internet and found a link that said the same thing, including the information about the typical drain pipe trap at 6 - 12 inches above the floor, and I decided to post for ideas, obviously being totally new to this stuff. I'm going to check out the hardware stores and see what's available. Maybe I can find a kit that includes a trap. Maybe I can keep that elbow (which is threaded on the inside, BTW), or maybe I'll have to remove it. The only way I can think of removing it at the moment with my tools (9.5 inch and 12 inch pipe wrenches, basically) is by sticking a broomstick into the elbow and cranking! That scares me a little.
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Hello,
jeff.
Appliance Repair Aid http://www.applianceaid.com /
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