Installing bar sink in basement, need advice/help on installing drain in concrete

[Randall2n]

I live in Southern Illinois, near St.Louis.

I am attempting to finsh my basement and the wife wants to put in a bar with a sink. I have never done plumbing before so I called around to have it done for me, but was being quoted around $1800.00 for just the drain pipe. While this may be an appropriate price it is far more than I was able to afford curently.

My drain opening is a straight 15' from where I can connect to my basement bath room drain pipe that then goes to a sewage ejector. Or

13' from the drain for the AC/Furnace unit, which also leads to the sewage ejector, but will have to have make a turn.

So, now I am left to doing it myself. I would appreciate any and all advice on how to go about this.

What I have learned from the internet thus far:

1.The drain pipe should slope 1/4" for every foot of pipe. 2.The drain pipe needs to be vented.(Air Admittance valve from Studor?) thats it.

Immediate Questions:

1. What do I need to cut the concrete?
2. Can I connect to the drain pipe from my basement bath room?
3. Can I connect to the drain pipe from the AC?
4. Which is better/worse?
5. How do I do a vent pipe?

Please help!

[David Babcock]

If it were me I would run to your bathroom drain connection, this is already vented. The 1/4 might be a bit much, after all you said it 15'. Well that would put you up almost 4". But again depending on the height of your wet bar sink it might just work in your favor. Make sure you have a trap in your drain pipe, and do it all with PVC. For water supply there is a fairly new product of flexible hose that is used for supply lines, but check the code in your area.

Dave

[PJx]

Rent an electric jackhammer. Available at all rental places.

We can't see it from here, but if it has enough capacity and slope...

Probably not. This is usually designed for a small trickle of water.

[MLD]

[PJx]

No offense, but why even mention code for this?

Would you pull a permit on your own home? Would you invite the inspector out to check your work in any case?

As you might guess, I'd never let an inspector on my property. Some people like big government, some don't. I'm ok, you're ok.

PJ.

[MLD]

[Randall2n]

I finally got a hold of the plumbing inspector. Where I live the inspections are strictly enforced when you go to sell your house. The city gets a copy the original plans from the builder, and in order to sell your house you have to a city inspection. If the inspector comes and finds major renovations not on the plans, the renovations are considered null and you could be required to rip it out. Not something I am will to take a chance on.

The slope only has to be 1/8" for every foot. ALL "Air Admittance Valves" are illegal in the state of Illinois. Pipes under the concrete must be a minimum of 2".

So it looks like I am off to rent an electric concrete saw.

I am going to have the contractor come back out and give a new estimate for just laying the pipe and doing the vent.

I rented an electric conrete saw and electric breaker (jack-hammer) saturday morning. The saw used some kind of composite blade that wore away as I cut, so I had to buy three(3) blades. Total cost about $130 (I found a rental place that was not open on sunday, so I just got charged for a one day rental).

The sawing was the worst for me. The saw was not on a cart or anything, I had to get on my knees and pull it across the floor. After about three(3) hours of this, my hands were killing me, luckly I had a really good pair of knee pads. If anyone else tries this hold out for one that you can stand up with. also look into geting one with a dimond tipped metal blade. I ended up sawing about three inches into the concrete.

Also I would like to note that this creates a lot of dust, A LOT OF DUST!!! Get a breathing mask and some goggles, put plastic over any air vents and around/on areas you do not want to be coated, open a winodw and put a fan blowing out in it. I have done drywall sanding many times, and this seemed about three times as bad to me.

Using the Jack-Hammer was actually pretty fun. A little jarring, but fun. Hauling the broken conrete up out of the basement was not to bad, just had to remember not to fill the bucket up too much (lots of small loads was easier).

Shoveling the rock below the concrete was an unexpected thing. I had no idea that the pipes woud be two(2) inches below the concrete. I know it sounds ignorant, but I figured after removing the concrete I would be done.

The plumber said that he would need three(3) feet of pipe exposed, with two(2) inches dug below the pipe, and tweleve(12) inches out on either side of the pipe.

Well that is my experience thus far.

Side note: I had three estimates done, two were about the same price. But there was a diffrence concerning the vent pipe. Apparently where I want the sink, the vent pipe has to go up into the floor joists and then over to where a vent pipe is. The problem comes in that the only exposed vent pipe is about two(2) inches LOWER than where the new vent pipe would come out at.

The first did not raise a question about it, but looked like he was going to use the lower pipe. The second said he was going to check on a variance to use the lower pipe, and mentioned something about an island sink vent. The third seemed completely confused and would not give an estimate because he did not want to under/over quote (he was a junior apprintce and said that he wanted a journeymen to come out and look at it).

Please post with any comments or concerns, as you can tell this is all greek to me.

[Speedy Jim]

Go here:

P-5.

The "island vent" scheme was designed for use in kitchens where the sink is out on an "island" and can't be vented vertically. It's a clever scheme which has lots of applications. I'll be taking bets on whether it will be allowed.

Good for you for taking the time to get the inspector's input on the project!

Jim

[Randall2n]

Well the project is over, I poured the concrete in last night.

I wish I knew about there being a diamond tipped blade and the water before I did the cutting, I am still cleaning up the dust (it got everywhere).

The inspector did not like the idea of using an island vent, but accepted it after seeing the complications that would be encountered by trying to go up the wall for a more traditional vent.

However, the plumber that put in the island vent did not have the vent pipe low enough, at the end it was sticking above the concrete. The plumber said that it could not be avoided because of where the drain was, the connectors and the pitch that the connectors must be. The inspector failed it though, because it stuck out of the concrete, and that could cause the pipe to crack. The inspector told the plumber to lay the connector, from the drain to the vent, down horizontally. The plumber told me that doing that is not right and is not up to code, but if that is what the inspector wants then that is what he will do.

The U-shaped part of the island vent, the part that goes up and then down inside the wall, needed to be at least six inches above the counter top height.

The water pipes to the bar sink needed air chambers on them, the inspector said that even the pipe to the refrigerator, for the ice maker, should have one, but would be ok once the air chamber was put on for the sink.

Anyway the plumber came back out quickly and fixed everything, and was very pleasant. So I am really glad that I had them do it. It cost me $450 to have them lay the drain and vent pipes. I have no idea if that is a good price. The inspector said it seemed high to him, but the other quotes I got just for laying the pipes were over $1,000.

I put rock back into the hole, just enough to cover the pipes, and then put plastic over the rock, when I dug the hole there was plastic between the rock and the concrete, so I just mimicked that. I had about 27 square feet, to fill in and must not have had a full 4 inches some where, because it only took 12 bags of 80 lbs. concrete mix (the kind you just add water to). The bag said it should take 14 bags for

24 square feet for a 4 inch pour. Other than being a little interesting to get smooth and level, this was very easy and took less than three hours to pour. I re-smoothed it out about once every hour, a little obsessive, but hey its boring watching concrete dry.

I would like to thank James from AAA AceCo for laying the drain and vent pipes.

I would also like to say thanks to all who posted. :)