installing 15 amp cabinet lights into a 20 amp circuit

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On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

+1 to all the above. I'm still trying to figure out how a romex cable, typically comes out from a cover plate in Micky's world.
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On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 04:27:34 -0800 (PST), trader_4

Maybe. There are two shadows, one darker than the other, for each wire, so it's certainly not clear.

The drawing showed three wires.

I'm still trying to figure out how your reading comprehension can be so low.
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On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:07:18 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:

As long as you are replying to my comments in trader_4's post, I guess I'll respond here too.
Give up. There is no "maybe" that the neutral (white) wire is visible in the picture. You need to get a better monitor/device/eyesight. I can see the white wire on my PC, my iPad and my smartphone.
Maybe Car13 will be nice to you and verify the presence or maybe he'll move the wires and post another link.
Bottom line is that the neutral wire is visible in the picture, so any discussion that related to only 2 wires being available is irrelevant.

...because there *are* 3 wires.

I asked that question because of your assertion that there are only 2 wires. If we were to suspend reality and agree that there are only 2 wires and then apply your statement "He might have been wrong when he said there was a ground" do you really think that the wires would be black and green? In my experience, devices that only provide a hot and a neutral use black and white, not black and green.

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On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 9:29:47 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

+1
I can see it. It's partially hidden, but like you said, just knowing that it's a light, seeing a black and a green, you immediately think where is the white and then it's not hard to spot.
Bottom line on this whole thing is that to do this 100% absolutely code compliant would be a real pain in the ass. I could certainly live with running the wire into the receptacle box and connecting it there. What would an inspector say? IDK, but they have discretion and I don't see any real safety issue as long as it's done in a reasonable way. For example, what happens when an electrician runs a new cable for a wall receptacle? Do they punch holes everywhere in the wall to meet the reqt that it be stapled along it's length, stapled within 12" of the new box, etc? Or do they drill a hole in the top or bottom plate, cut a hole for a box and just snake the cable? If you had to strictly follow every last code detail, regardless of the circumstances, it sure would make for a lot of extra work.
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On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 10:03:47 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:

I couldn't agree more.
This is from a "This Old House" installation. Is it code to have the Romex come out the wall and left exposed as shown? Maybe a length of wiremold to cover the Romex would work.
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/step/0,,20217311_826161,00.html
I've removed the short cord that comes with shop lights and ran Romex directly into the housing, secured with a Romex connector. This allowed me to wire them into a lighting circuit without have to put a receptacle in the ceiling near each one. Perhaps that is a viable solution for Car13.
Assuming the cord that is on the LED fixture is not code compliant to be run inside a wall, replacing it with Romex might work. Where he sources the power from is up to him. Properly, from a lighting circuit, or improperly, from a counter receptacle box. I realize that I am talking from both sides by saying he shouldn't run the existing cord inside the wall but "accepting" a connection to the counter receptacle circuit. It's just that running the existing cord through the wall makes me very uncomfortable.

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Hey everyone,
I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.
I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe for me and everyone else in my building.
I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more information that is lacking in my description?
Thanks
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On 2/25/2016 1:44 PM, snipped-for-privacy@google.com wrote:

I'd be tempted to run some 14 AWG wire from the existing box, to a new box. And then wire nut it within the new work box.
You can call black "hot", white is "neutral" and green is "ground". Unless you want to call them Cedrick, Susan, and Martian.
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On 2/25/2016 11:00 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

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On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 3:27:00 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:

This is true. It also convinces me that the existing cord cannot be used to hard wire the fixture into a junction box. If he wants it hard wired, he is going to have to upsize that cord to match the requirements of the circuit.
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On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 4:15:03 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

What happens when you hard wire any light fixture that has 18 gauge wires into a 15 or 20A circuit?
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On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:46:55 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:

Hey, let me start by saying that I am not a code expert. I've been saying all along that I'm not sure about the fixture code itself. That said...
I think it's different when the fixture is attached directly to the fixture box and the wires within the fixture are wire-nutted to the source wires in the box. Once we start talking about cords from the fixture I don't think that they can be brought into a junction box but I could be wrong.
I think this section of the code covers what I'm talking about:
NEC 400.8 Uses Not Permitted
(ref. Extension Cord) Flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:
- As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure - Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors - Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings
I *think* that the fixture cord qualifies as a "flexible cord" and would therefore not be permitted, especially not permitted inside the wall. Whether it would be permitted to run from the fixture to a junction box under the counter or even inside the cabinet is something I'm not sure of.
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On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 10:45:44 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I think you have valid points especially about running it inside the wall. On the other hand, some manufacturer made this thing, presumably it's listed, which is why I asked what the install instructions and pics show. It has a flexible cord that's supposed to be wired to something. How in the hell are you supposed to be able to use it?
He could put a plug on the end of it and plug it in, like Micky suggested.
One key to avoiding this is to try to match what you're buying with what you have to work with.
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On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 20:06:03 -0800 (PST), trader_4

directly there
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On 02/25/2016 06:46 PM, trader_4 wrote:

And what happens when some numbnutz loads a light fixture up with a couple of these cuz they're too cheap to install proper outlets?
(Amazon.com product link shortened)
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On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 7:10:39 AM UTC-5, WTF wrote:

The same thing that happens when people put in bulbs that exceed the fixture rating, use an extension cord that too small for the loads, etc. None of those are prevented by whether a breaker is 15A or 20A either.
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On 02/26/2016 05:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:

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The fire fighter's union is creating jobs? ;-)
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com posted for all of us...

YEAH, except I'm only a volley and not union. Put the wet stuff on the red stuff. Never lost a foundation yet...
--
Tekkie

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On 2/25/2016 3:26 PM, mike wrote:

It's a branch circuit, not a main line.
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On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 1:44:24 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@google.com wrote:

As you may have gleaned from this thread, the correct terminology is:
Black - Hot White - Neutral Green - Ground

OK, here's where things get a little touchy. Please don't take this the wrong way. After all, you did say: "I do want this to be safe for me and everyone else in my building."
You don't know what to call the wires which tells me that you haven't spent much time working with household electrical wiring. You passed the inspection so now you don't mind going off the reservation. Both of those things concern me. Are you sure that you are the right person to be attempting this installation? Do you have friends that have done house wiring before that would be willing to help/teach you how to do this safely?
Keep in mind that we are all pretty sure that using that receptacle box in the first place is not code compliant, so anything else that you do may only make matters worse.
One of my concerns is that if we just tell you to drill a hole in the wall and fish that cord into the receptacle box and use wire nuts to match the wires colors by color, are you going to be able to do that safely? Will you know if the box is so over crowded that you are so out of code that it is now unsafe? Do you know how to safely attach stranded wire to solid wire? Do you know how to safely secure the wire to the box? (You might recall from my previous posts that I'm not even sure that it is code (or even safe) to run that cord inside a wall and into a junction box.

If you indeed want to tackle this job, we might be able to tell you the generic steps to get the wiring done, but without actually seeing the inside of that box, we can't be specific. If they used wire nuts and pigtails, adding a wire would be done one way (assuming there is room). If they back-clamped the wires into the receptacle, it will need to be done in a different way. If there is some sort of shared neutral (I doubt it) then that adds another element. All I am trying to say is that it all depends on how that receptacle box is wired.
At the risk of sounding tedious, I really think you need to determine if that cord should even be run inside the wall. If not, then you are going to have figure out how to get your source wires into a junction box and then figure out how to get that cord (safely) into the junction box. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it might be OK to remove that cord and use Romex as shown here:
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/step/0,,20217311_826161,00.html

Good luck!
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