On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
The alternative would be to do what he apparently suggested in his first
post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle. That may
be a code violation, because current code requires 20A circuits for
appliances to be plugged in and AFAIK, you can't put other loads on it.
But it's a 14W LED and insignificant as far as effecting the ampacity,
so I could live with it.
I'm not sure it even is a code problem. The 20A circuit reqt for
receptacles is relatively new. If he has an older house, not subject
to that at the time, IDK if it really is a code violation, ie what says
that he can't tap into an existing circuit? He's adding an LED, not adding
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
I'm still trying to picture how that would be done from a physical
perspective. Assuming the GFCI is in a standard receptacle box, the
connections would need to made inside the wall and inside the box.
I guess I'd like to see his "bare lead" transformer, but if it's similar
to the one that I linked to, it has to be mounted someplace and then
the wires have to somehow have to pass through the wall and into the
receptacle box. It sounds like flush mount junction box would be required
to accept the wires from the transformer (with a proper fitting of course)
and then Romex would need to be run from that junction box to the
Perhaps there is an existing (remote) junction box for the receptacle
circuit that could be used, but then the wires need to be run from
the transformer back to the fixture itself.
It seems like we are adding more complexity, and therefore possibly more
code issues, than just using an existing lighting circuit or even new
circuit if need be (and possible).
Am I missing something simple on the "physical installation" front?
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 9:59:32 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:06:16 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
But he specifically said:
"The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch. "
I thought that we discussing his exact situation, not a situation where a
plug in type transformer is present.
OK, so his transformer isn't like the freestanding one that I linked to, but
it sure sounds like that style of transformer is inside the fixture. Bottom
line is that he has 2 bare wires that he has to attach to a 110VAC source.
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:49:30 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Well, in the previous post did include the wire in type too,
but it wasn't one where the transformer is part of a panel.
I missed that part. One would think that such a product
would either have a junction box that's part of it or else
be made to mount on a box like a light fixture would.
Neither would seem suited to using it for cabinet
lighting. Which is probably why the ones I've seen have
been like the ones I described.
We really need a pic of the actual unit to see what it actually is.
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:49:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
I know he said that. It still sounds like regular wires to me.
[time goes by]
But he's posted picture links and counting the whole thread I've got
one loss and two wins.
He doesn't want to use a plug.
But I was right about what the wires look like. Even though he has
4 empty receptacles (probably because the kitchen isn't in use yet).
And I was right that he plans for the wire to come straight out of
Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
the junction box. It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex. Plus if this
is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
that sparks can't get out.
His drawing either shows no junction box, or it shows the connections
made outside of the box!!!
I have my own home-made under-the-counter light, installed at least 25
years ago. Two sockets using those 110V hotdog-shaped light bulbs
(like are used for bed-lamps) and a separate switch (none of which is
visible, just behind the cabinet skirt), and a two-conductor wire
(lamp cord). I put a plug on the cord and plugged it in. I used
insulated staples or 2-sided tape or something to keep the wire up
under the cabinet.
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 5:31:07 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
Last time I checked, Romex doesn't go through the receptacle cover
or typically any cover at all.
Most houses today are using plastic boxes that have plastic tabs
that squeeze against the cable. While it's intended for Romex,
I certainly could live with the round cable going through it.
As for tightening up so sparks can't get out, typical box isn't
made to be spark tight to begin with.
He's clearly intending to make the connection inside the existing
receptacle box. Good grief. Conductor fill might be a legitimate issue
though, depending on what's in there already.
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 5:31:07 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
Really? The receptacles are empty "probably" because the kitchen isn't in
The 2 duplex receptacles next my sink are only used for small electrics
like hand mixers, the crock pot, the coffee grinder, etc. Things that are
plugged in, used and then put away. The vast majority of the time they are
empty. The unfinished counter tells us the kitchen is not in use yet, but
empty receptacles tell us nothing other than that they are empty.
As for your "win" related to the cord. Your *assumption* was correct, while
I chose not to make an assumption and to withhold a suggested method until
we had the details. If your correct guess makes you feel victorious, enjoy
And that is acceptable to you? In what world?
That is what I have been trying to get across to you all along. If this is to
be done to code, he is going to need a junction box to accept the cord from
the LED fixture. He will then need to run wire that is rated for in wall use
to that junction box from a source. I could be wrong, but I'll wager that
the cord from the led fixture is not rated for in wall use. Even if it is, it
can't just be run through a hole in the wall.
What 2 conductor wire?
Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
Ground. In addition he said:
"The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?)
onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall."
Even if you have trouble reading, he included a picture.
Sparks? Do you think that the purpose of Romex connectors is to contain
If that isn't a reason for me to slowly back away from this conversation
I don't know what it is.
On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:45:38 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
We're really going to quibble about "probably". Below you're proud
that you don't make assumptions. So isn't it better to make a
qualified assumption (probably) than an unqualified one?
Sink? There's no sink in the picture.
Not everyone works that way.
Who said that was the reason I thought it's not used yet? The
reasons are that the counter has nothing on it, the paint colors don't
match, and the edge of the paint is not straight. But that's not
total proof so I said probably. See?
MMMmmmMMMmmm. Oh, that's good.
Where did I say it was acceptable? Four lines down I said " Plus if
this is permitted at all (????)...."
That's what I said in an earlier post.
The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.
I see 2 wires and 2 shadows. He might have been wrong when he said
there was a ground.
Look at it.
The purpose of junction boxes is to contain sparks and fire.
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
Look, I'm only responding to help you out. Maybe it's because I feel sorry
I don't know what kind of monitor you have or what kind of device you are
viewing those pictures with, but for some reason you are aren't seeing the
neutral (white) wire. It comes out of the casing, goes behind the ground
(green) wire, runs along the hot (black) wire and then goes behind the hot
wire. Notice how there are *2* stripped ends right next to each other where
the hot and neutral end.
He never said anything about a ground being there or not. All he said
was "The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel..." and he was 100% correct.
Tis you that are wrong.
Let's say the device only had 2 wires, a hot and a neutral. What color
would expect those to wires to be?
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