installing 15 amp cabinet lights into a 20 amp circuit

Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

Thanks!

Reply to
car13
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It should be as safe as any lights. Hopefully the built in transformer will have a fuse internal to it rated for the lights.

Reply to
Ralph Mowery

Two different issues, here.

First, neither the lights nor the circuit will care. The circuit can more than adequately supply the load. And, the lights don't care where their ~15W of power come from (as long as there are no YELLOW electrons involved! Damn pesky things... :> )

But, your reference to "behind an existing 20A outlet" suggests you want to hard-wire them to one of the two GFCI counter-top branch circuits intended for use in a kitchen. There, you run afoul of code as you are now installing a fixed load (albeit small) that defeats the purpose of having "two 20A GFCI circuits for SMALL APPLIANCES"

[I.e., why not connect the refrigerator there, as well? Ans: don't!]
Reply to
Don Y

IDK exactly what "behind an existing 20A outlet really means", but as far as the code goes, I think you probably have a point regarding code and connecting it to one of the 20A appliance circuits, which are supposed to be only for plug-in appliances. However, it is perfectly safe and for just 14W worth of LED lights, I know what I'd do..... Unless some other circuit is easily available, of course.

Reply to
trader_4

re: "Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?"

If you install them behind an outlet, they are not going to cast much light. ;-)

What do you mean by "behind an outlet"?

Reply to
DerbyDad03

He means wiring them into the wire nuts behind a regular outlet, ie not wiring them to a plug that is plugged into the outlet.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Danniken

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

Reply to
carson

In that case...

Safe? Probably. Code? Probably not.

See trader_4's response for the reason.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

Trader is right about the code. I don't see a huge problem but it is not really legal. If you have a general lighting circuit in there that would be the one to use and you can even make a case that it is legal on with the dish washer or disposal. Not the fridge

Reply to
gfretwell

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

Reply to
Micky

We ran a separate drop off the lighting circuit feeding a pair of wall switches. The wall switches, in turn, feed two halves of a split duplex receptacle located above the sink (behind the sconce -- if that's what it's called?). There, installed a pair of power supplies the outputs of which then are routed down through the walls to connect to the under-cabinet light strips.

In this way, we can service the power supplies, adjust intensity, replace them, etc. without having to worry about "will it physically fit" at some future date. And, puts the switches controlling them in a comparable place as the other light switches for the room.

[considered "remoting" the intensity control but figured we could probably live with one setting. currently set for "workspace lighting", i.e. bright. If we later decided we wanted to use them as a dim sort of nightlight, we'd tweek that setting]
Reply to
Don Y

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer. The wires might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues, perhaps because of aesthetics.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

I missed this part. Bare leads or not, buy a plug and connect it to the leads. You probably need a plug with screw connectors. Do they still sell the small 2-prong ones?

Yeah, but nowhere near as many styles as before:

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and maybe these two
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but the video in all 3 cases is unrelated to the plug, so I can't tell if either of these have screws inside. Probably not. Forget I mentioned them. And if it says Quick in the name, probably won't work either.

It's good to save the cords from things one throws away, so you can solder a plug and a few inches of cord onto bare wires or when a plug fails. I have a box of 20 of these already, in various colors.

Maybe. But maybe meant to be sold in Europe too so they dont' know what plug to put on the end.

This sort of contradicts that idea, but I still can't imagine selling something that requires wires coming out of the wall beside or through the wall plate. I've done that with my TV co-ax, with my bathroom speaker wires, and with an telephone extension flashing light (for when the bell is off but I'm awake, so I'll know the phone is ringing.) I certainly wouldn't do it with 110V.

IOW max 0.6 amps output.

FWIW, if it outputs 14.7w, the input actually used is less than twice** that, less than 1.2 amps. But if the wires short to each other or ground, you'll see a spark far bigger than that.

**Twice would mean only 50% efficiency, and transformers are better than that.

Reply to
Micky

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read his first post again.

What phyical issues could those be?

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be? Or a

6-in-1? What's your alternative?
Reply to
Micky

I partly take this back. The big rubber plugs that go on industrial extensions cords would look bad almost anywhere -- I agree -- and those are still easy to get. I guess if that is all there were, that's what I'd use. But HD still sells one model that's small.

And I've been planning ahead so I have extra plugs, that I bought to be sure of having one when I need it; I have two really thin plugs meant to go behind a dresser, so they're less than 1/2" thick, with the wire coming out of the side**; I have the cords with plugs permanently attached: and before I throw anything in the trash, I take the cord, or the plug if it unscrews. I'm hoping to go to Guatemala within a couple years, and I think I'll see what they sell. I like shopping for hardware when I'm out of the country, if there's something I need.

**I'm saving these for where space is a problem, but if needed I could use them elsewhere and just remember where I'm using them in case I actually do need thin ones. They dont use screws, just metal prongs, but they work with standard lamp cord (which is also becoming less common.)
Reply to
Micky

They will light the space inside the wall, between the 2 studs on each side of that outlet. Maybe he could then put a glass block or two into that wall so the light can be seen.

Reply to
Paintedcow

I know you took this back later (partly), but even to have made this comment in the first place was almost enough to make me realize that this conversation probably isn't worth having with you. However, I'll use it as teaching moment.

Kitchens are often the most important room in the house and some people put more money into the blending of aesthetics and functionality in a kitchen than they do in any other room.

Going back to the aesthetics issue, you have no idea what the wires on the transformer look like. What if they look like this?

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Are you just going to put a plug on these wires? I hope not, but since kitchen aesthetics don't matter to you, maybe you would.

As far as extending the bare lead wires with a spare cord, where would store the connections? The wires nuts would have to go in a junction box. After you've done that, how do you plan to have the cord come out of the junction box so you can plug it in?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm planning the project.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

The alternative would be to do what he apparently suggested in his first post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle. That may be a code violation, because current code requires 20A circuits for appliances to be plugged in and AFAIK, you can't put other loads on it. But it's a 14W LED and insignificant as far as effecting the ampacity, so I could live with it.

I'm not sure it even is a code problem. The 20A circuit reqt for receptacles is relatively new. If he has an older house, not subject to that at the time, IDK if it really is a code violation, ie what says that he can't tap into an existing circuit? He's adding an LED, not adding counter receptacles.

Reply to
trader_4

I can pretty much guarantee that the install instructions don't say to do it that way. The correct way would be to wire it into a junction box and I would hope that's what the instructions would say.

I've done that with my TV co-ax, with my bathroom

Wrong concept here. What you look at is *power* on both sides. The secondary is 15W, that means ideally, the primary is 15W, giving a current of 125ma at 120V. It will be a bit more than that because of losses, but that's the conversion concept.

Using your method, a battery charger that supplies 25A, would be pulling less than 50A? It sure would be less than 50A, because it's on the order of 2.5A @ 120V

See above. You're using equal currents on both sides, when it's actually equal power.

Reply to
trader_4

I'm still trying to picture how that would be done from a physical perspective. Assuming the GFCI is in a standard receptacle box, the connections would need to made inside the wall and inside the box.

I guess I'd like to see his "bare lead" transformer, but if it's similar to the one that I linked to, it has to be mounted someplace and then the wires have to somehow have to pass through the wall and into the receptacle box. It sounds like flush mount junction box would be required to accept the wires from the transformer (with a proper fitting of course) and then Romex would need to be run from that junction box to the receptacle box.

Perhaps there is an existing (remote) junction box for the receptacle circuit that could be used, but then the wires need to be run from the transformer back to the fixture itself.

It seems like we are adding more complexity, and therefore possibly more code issues, than just using an existing lighting circuit or even new circuit if need be (and possible).

Am I missing something simple on the "physical installation" front?

Reply to
DerbyDad03

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