Incandescent that avoids upcoming ban

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ransley wrote:

I got one in PA about 10 years ago, 16 at most (well after a move 16.5 years ago), and it is mercury.
It's easy enough to tell. Mercury is silvery, while alternative liquids look different - usually dyed red.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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The incandescents last a lot longer than those new fancy bulbs. Why the heck does the new kind burn out so fast?
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Yeah, I just use incandescents and long tube fluoros myself.

Its the technology.
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CFLs last longer, its proven, maybe alot of duds are made from crapy chinese manufacturing, but HD has a 9 yr warranty and at 2$ a bulb. so keep the warranty and pack in a box.
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Jeff wrote:

The Japanese would have taken over the automobile market.
Oh, wait...
--
"[I]t\'s not surprising, then, that they get bitter, they cling to guns or
religion or antipathy to people who aren\'t like them or anti-immigrant
  Click to see the full signature.
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So the same totalitarianism that gave us half-flushed toilets, half-washed clothing, poison mattresses etc etc is now taking aim at our lightbulbs.
This much I'm sure of: as a migraine sufferer CFLs can and often do trigger them within just a few minutes. See: http://tinyurl.com/6xqbx5 .
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fto.com...

Cool white or daylight flourescent I hate and always have, warm white is fine for me, I know a camera store that put in Daylight T8, their store is empty, the employees hate it but the owner likes it.
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On Sun, 4 May 2008 11:42:11 -0700 (PDT), ransley

Hi Mark,
With the exception of some high-end retailers, cool white (4,100K) and HID (typically 3,700K and higher) dominate the retail world and while some commercial office spaces will opt for 3,500K lamps, 4,100K pretty much rules the day.
As a lighting designer, I'm seeing a notable shift towards 5,000K. Our firm has done several side-by-side mock-ups in offices and on industrial floors and we've found the vast majority of employees prefer the higher colour temperature (next to each other, the part that is illuminated at 4,100K looks "dull", "dingy" and "dirty" by comparison).
Cheers, Paul
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This does vary with brightness of the illumination. 4100K looks good to me at 900-1,300 lux. 5000K at that illumination level often looks a bit stark, though individual illuminated items look good if the lamps are "850" or "SPX50" ones or are rendered well regardless of lamp spectral properties. But the room as a whole can still appear a little icy cold or "stark", and non-triphosphor lamps can give a bit of "dreary gray effect".
I have yet to see much usage of 5000K. Is this a coming fad?
I have noticed that the Target stores in my area use 3000K lighting - it seems stuffy to me. I wish they would use 3500K - still warm but not stuffy.
I have seen some stores use 6500K, even 6500K T8 lamps - that looks icy cold and stark at best to me even at a couple thousand lux, and has (to me at least) a "dreary grayish" effect if the lamps are not triphosphor ones. I see 6500K used about as much as 5000K. And I see a difference - 6500 is definitely bluish to me as far as fluorescent lighting goes, while 5000 is "icy pure white that sometimes looks a tiny bit bluish".
As for home use - usually illumination levels are a lot less than 1,000 lux, and 4100K is often "too high" there. I mostly like 3500K for home use, though dimmer areas can look a bit dreary unless color temperature gets even lower (warmer).
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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On Mon, 5 May 2008 03:21:39 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

Hi Don,
Our firm is pretty much using 5,000K exclusively now; mostly Osram Sylvania XPS. I wasn't initially convinced it was appropriate beyond the shop floor, but it's been very well received right across the board -- at the risk of making this sound like a laundry detergent ad, everything looks "fresher", "cleaner" and "brighter".
I use 6,500K in outdoor applications (they, in turn, makes the 5,000K lamps look somewhat dingy) and I'd be curious to see how they'd look in a commercial setting. I'd also like to try out the new 8,000Ks too, but my partners are not as keen on the idea.
FWIW, I use SPX30s in my own home (living areas) and SPX50s in the utility room.
Cheers, Paul
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I have seen a few retail establishments with 6500K.
I remember recently seeing one that still does. Now, doggone it, I can't remember who/what/where! But I'm pretty sure it was T8 6500K.
Then there are two others that I remember better as to who they were and where they were. One was a copy shop using 6500K "Daylight" (halophosphor) lamps. They moved to a nearby location and did not take 6500K with them; now they use 4100K. The other is a jewelry store that used 6500K triphosphor (uncertain about bulb diameter however), but they recently went out of business - my speculation is the owner(s) retiring.
All of these places appeared to me icy and at least slightly "stark", and the one with the halophosphors also had some "dreary gray effect".
In my experience, 6500K lamps are more bluish than most overcast sky, even though that is widely said to be 6500K. I seem to think that overcast sky should be close to the color temperature of sunlight in space, and I see varying numbers for that - with 5780K appearing to me to make a good case there.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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On Mon, 5 May 2008 04:32:48 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:

Hi Don,
I would be less inclined to go with high colour temperature lamps if the general colour scheme is warm or if a lot of wood surfaces are used, but if neutral or cool colours dominate, I would definitely opt for 5,000K and, quite possibly, 6,500K. Obviously, as you know, the intended use of the space pretty much dictates this choice. If you want to convey a warm, relaxed and casual atmosphere, 3,000K is the way to go. If, on the other hand, you want foster a no-nonsense, business-like, get-out-of-my-way-I've-got-important-things-to-do mind set, the higher the better. And I agree with you that you must have sufficient raw lumens to make this work.
Few of us realize just how much lighting and, more specifically, light colour influences our mood. In a high-end retail environment warm colours tell us to relax, slow down and dream, whereas in a grocery or hardware store, say, cool colours help keep our minds focused on the business at hand, direct us to the cash registers and then quickly out the door (no loitering please). If I saw 3,000K lamps lighting-up a Walmart or Target I'd literally crap my pants. Ditto 5,000K or 6,500K lamps in a Victoria's Secret or Neiman Marcus.
Cheers, Paul
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As it turns out, as I said, the Targets in my area use 3,000K lamps. I think that Target is actually trying for a more casual, less rushed atmosphere. But I find 3,000K, especially 3,000K fluorescent, "stuffy" at usual retail illumination levels.
Walmart, K-Mart, supermarkets and offices in my experience traditionally used and still use 4,100K. I find that a "neutral white", go-do-your-business sort of lighting. Maybe a slight touch on the warmish side of this, and easily appearing "dingy" by being white rather than warm while being on the "low color temperature end" of "white rather than warm".
5,000K is something I find good for workplaces, provided (as you agreed) that enough light is provided to make this high a color temperature look good. I think it will work well at supermarkets, provided sufficient light is used to make it look good - now I wonder how many lux that is, gottry try and see - maybe a thousand lux is enough, may need 2,000 lux to look nice and good to me. With that color and sufficient illumination level, the pure white color looks a bit "futuristic", makes me think of a starship where there is a lot of work and much less play, and a lot of what little play is towards getting work done.
But 6,500K? Sorry, I find that usually goes too far, and I usually have trouble seeing that high a color temperature looking good until illumination levels in lux get into the 5 figures. I am aware of exceptions: Light sources manage to appear "clean" rather than "dreary" with such high color temp. at surface brightness nowhere near 5 figures of lux - such as my computer monitor's screen. That thing is over 6,500K, maybe 7,000K, and a bit greenish, and my vision manages to make me see that thing as a "crisp icy-in-a-good-way white", hardly bluish or cyanish, also not "dreary".
As for lighting at Victoria's Secret: I find halogen/incandescent at 3,000-3,400 K ideal there. I also have memories of layout of clothing items and background, as well as light distribution patterns and diffuseness of the light. For one thing, when something is being illuminated by an accent light or something that is effectively an accent light, so that illumination on that object/area is mainly from one luminaire and also above average for the room, I find the more-pinkish-less-greenish usual practice of warm color fluorescents to be detrimental. Also, illumination of an object or a small area from a single luminaire as opposed to from multiple luminaires or a "wide diffuse source" has some accentuating effects, such as on visual sensation of texture. This is where I find incandescents/halogens working well. I do see ability to produce CFL luminaires that can get closer to this than I have seen, but I seem to think that requires reflectors just a little too large to easily sell! Also, have lamp color not pinkish there - easily achieved by having CFLs mildly overheat (2700K CFLs in my experience not only have color temp. increase but also drift a bit towards green, away from pink when overheated - and I see this effect being useful when carried out to a mild extent). Making CFLs heat up more is easily enough achievable in downlights! As for more-dimly-illuminated areas of a retail space illuminated unevenly by warmer color light - I see incandescent/halogen getting a slight boost there by having higher scotopic/photopic ratio than fluorescents of closest color. How such areas appear in peripheral vision appears to me to count for something. I suspect that deploying fluorescent lighting with all of these factors being considered can do well for both energy efficiency and making fluorescent lighting looking good to others that are considering various lighting options!
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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funny you would say that to him. I was thinking about doing just that (buying cases of bulbs, not keeping them with the eight tracks) My 8-tracks are in a controlled environment due to the foam pressers and the plastic. The bulbs will not need this specialized attention.
s

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thanks for the info. sounds hoaky to me though.
s

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Apart from possible health problems which frankly seemed far-fetched! We keep posting the following: People do not seem to realise that so called 'wasted electricity' creates warmth! Here we use electricity most months of the year for home heating. Especially cool/cold evenings when lights tend to be on anyway. Any 'wasted' heat from the use of 'old fashioned' incandescent bulbs, which cost about 25 cents each btw, merely helps to warm the house! So the electric heaters in the rooms in use don't cut in as often. We have a bathroom for example which when in use has six 40 watt bulbs, the wasted heat from those 240 watts of non CFL bulbs, means that the 500 watt bathroom electric heater rarely cuts in at all! Similarly our computer/bedroom is heated almost entirely by two computers running almost continuously and one desk lamp at night. In other words if one uses electricity for heating anyway, almost every month of the year, from October through July it doesn't matter how it becomes household warmth! Using CFLs outside for lights that are on for lengthy periods where the heat would be wasted does make sense. But that seems to be a use where CFLs do not perform well in cold climates? One big electricity 'waster' is a domestic dryer, which chucks damp heated air outside, to avoid mildew/mould and dampness problems. Use a clothesline as much as possible when weather allows; even cold weather. Also CFLs are said to not work a well where they are frequently switch on/off such as stairways, cupboards, occasional visits to a shed etc. Also they don't work (or don't work well) in outside lights equipped with sensors that come on when someone comes close to them! All in all not convinced yet that there is an overall saving and in view of the ten times cost of CFLs, that they are regarded as 'Hazardous waste' by garbage collectors etc. not yet in the mood to give up the incandescents. We have a neighbour who is heavily into CFLs, three of which are outside and on all night. Since within their house they use electrcity for heating there has been effectively no decrease in thei elctricity consumption or their power bill!
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You are of a minority group that does not use AC in summer, and has cheaper electric than NG.
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terry wrote:
(To condense, mostly an argument that CFLs do not save money if your home is in a colder climate and is heated electrically)
Is there a heat pump in the home? If so, then the heat pump is a less costly heating method than other elctrical loads. The heat output of a heat pump is not all from the electricity it uses - about half of it is heat pumped into the house from the outside.
If you don't have a heat pump, see if it is worth getting one.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
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